D&D 5E How does the Reincarnation spell actually work in practice?

[Severite]

Fairness shouldn't entail choosing a less-capable race when you start, in the hopes of later dying and reincarnating yourself to bypass racial limits. It wouldn't be fair to anyone else at the table, who managed to stay alive. It's not fair to other Halflings if the only ones capable of reaching Dexterity 22 are Halflings who weren't born as Halflings, and who have died. I mean, just as a baseline, in fairness to all players everywhere, no rule should ever reward death.

It's an ad hoc situation, so we're left looking at how the rules work in other situations, and most things are about what we would expect. One rule that's pretty much universal, though, is that you can't exceed 20 through any means available to the players - it takes extremely powerful magic items, or you have to be a level 20 barbarian. An ad hoc rule which failed to conform with that guideline would seem inappropriate to me.

Lol. We have very different ways of viewing this, and, frankly, I am ok with this. That said, I would imagine that the occurrence of these particular situations would be rare in the extreme, as, most players I would imagine pick races to maximize their stats in any case. And. Why not? Death is just one more aspect of a characters story, personally, "rewarding death" to me sounds like we are somehow grading player performance, which is so far outside my interest, that I lack a real response in regards to that particular line of conversation. All of this is of course besides the point, really, as it sounds like we have very different playstyles.

 

[CapnZapp]

Fairness shouldn't entail choosing a less-capable race when you start, in the hopes of later dying and reincarnating yourself to bypass racial limits. It wouldn't be fair to anyone else at the table, who managed to stay alive. It's not fair to other Halflings if the only ones capable of reaching Dexterity 22 are Halflings who weren't born as Halflings, and who have died. I mean, just as a baseline, in fairness to all players everywhere, no rule should ever reward death.

It's an ad hoc situation, so we're left looking at how the rules work in other situations, and most things are about what we would expect. One rule that's pretty much universal, though, is that you can't exceed 20 through any means available to the players - it takes extremely powerful magic items, or you have to be a level 20 barbarian. An ad hoc rule which failed to conform with that guideline would seem inappropriate to me.

While you are entitled to an opinion, please don't try to make this a fairness issue.

Exhibit A: Life isn't fair.
Exhibit B: The idea that anyone would *game* a Reincarnation is preposterous. Attempt it, let alone cheat at the random roll.

Conclusion: if, by some remote happenstance, I'm playing a Halfling and my fellow party member dies at Dex 20 and is reincarnated as a Dex 22 Halfling; throwing a tantrum about "fairness" is way way WAY out of line.

The only proper reaction is: "Wow, you're back. And Congratulations!"

I'm assuming you don't arguing over unfairness every time your fellow party members find a cool magic item (and you don't), or when they get blessed by the Oracle/Temple/whatever (and you don't).

I'm also assuming that IF you insist that the Dex 22 Halfling is "unfair", you'll also allow me to reroll my Resurrection roll if I'm a Wizard rolling an -2 Int Orc, since that's most assuredly "unfair" to me.

Right?



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[lowkey13]

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[CapnZapp]

This is a bizarre thread, but I will point out, again, that this is a theoretical concern. Just look at this thread- it was resurrected, not reincarnated.

In order for this scenario to happen, you have to have the following:

1. A character who is powerful enough to have a 20 in an ability; and ...

2. A set of circumstances where that character, who is powerful enough to have a 20, is killed; and ...

3. A set of circumstances where the powerful character is killed, and they have no access to any type of raise dead/resurrection, BUT they do have reincarnation (and they would rather "roll the dice" than wait for a more reliable method); AND ...

4. They get a roll that just happens to match a racial bonus with their uber-stat.

I'm not saying that this has never, ever happened. But IME, this has happened precisely no times, ever. In multiple decades of play, I have seen reincarnate used exactly zero times. I'm not saying that no one ever uses it, but it's not like casting magic missile.

All that said, from RAW, specific beats general. The rule of the hard cap 20 applies to all abilities, and all things, unless otherwise stated. This includes racial bonuses. Those things that allow you to exceed a 20 are enumerated with specificity (the Barbarian capstone, certain epic boons, certain magic manuals which state that they increase the maximum score). So the answer is no. You don't get $100, you don't go above 20, you don't pass go. Sorry.

Now, those are the rules. If you want, you can make a different ruling for your table in case this hyper-specific scenario every happens (it won't). Let them re-roll. Or let them exceed the maximum despite the rules- it's your table. Whatever. It's all good, man.

Sorry, but writing in a jovial voice doesn't make you more right.

I agree with everything you say - up to where you squander your goodwill by claiming to know the rules better than several posters.

The fact is that this is not clear-cut at all, and it's really hard to argue the DM that allows it is making a house-rule, while the DM that don't isn't.

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[lowkey13]

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[lowkey13]

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[Swarmkeeper]

In case any one is curious, I will break it down in the following manner:

1. Textual support for the hardcap.

In several places, you see references to the so-called hard cap of 20 in 5e.

"You can't increase an ability score above 20."

"As normal, you can't increase an ability score above 20 using this feature."

"Adventurers can have scores as high as 20, and monsters and divine beings can have scores as high as 30."

By the RAW, as we all know, you can't go above 20 in ability score.

Put another way, there is a general rule that you can never, ever, go above 20 in an ability.

First of all, stay jovial, lowkey13 - it's more fun that way.

Second of all, some of your "textual support" is taken out of, um, context.

PHB pg 15
"When your character gains a level, his or her class often grants additional features, as detailed in the class description. Some of these features allow you to increase your ability scores, either increasing two scores by 1 each or increasing one score by 2. You can’t increase an ability score above 20. In addition, every character’s proficiency bonus increases at certain levels."

One might say that this is a specific rule - a specific rule regarding ability score in the context of gaining a level. Not the fabled "hard-cap" of 20 always.

PHB p49 (and others)
"When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature."
Context: ability score improvements as a result of, yep, gaining a level.

PHB pg 173
"A score of 10 or 11 is the normal human average, but adventurers and many Monsters are a cut above average in most Abilities. A score of 18 is the highest that a person usually reaches. Adventurers can have scores as high as 20, and Monsters and divine beings can have scores as high as 30."

This one is a bit wiggly but it is hardly what I would call concrete proof of a "hard-cap". In fact, it could be in reference to a 1st level adventurer. We don't know, because ambiguity and stuff.


To sum up: I don't see/interpret/feel/whatever the general rule of the "hard-cap" and I don't think a lot of people do either.


All that said, one of your earlier posts sums up this discussion nicely, lowkey13. If you'll allow me to paraphrase: this (meaning having your level 4+ character with a 20 in your core stat die then reincarnated and then rolling for a specific race with a +2 bonus in your core class stat after you already did NOT choose a race with a +1 or +2 in that stat at the time of character creation) is such a corner case that it is likely to come up precisely never. Make it stop! Dangit - I'm part of the problem! [drops silverware, runs screaming from house]

 

[CapnZapp]

Yes.

Remember, lowkey13, I did agree to everything you said, except that one thing.

"Stay jovial" - Captain Mal would have liked that one ☺

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[lowkey13]

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