How dungeons have changed in Dungeons and Dragons

[Lanefan]

I find that after years of wondering what some module writers were thinking when they put monsters in rooms they couldn't fit out of, etc., that these days I quite enjoy the sheer randomness of it all. Who *cares* why the monster is here, or how it got here, or what it eats...it's trying to bend your nose into your face, so deal with it.

Open another door; you never know what'll be behind it, even if you think you might.

Lanefan

 

[Rothe]

In another thread concerning artwork, something interesting was brought up: that the focus on dungeons in D&D has changed over the years (from OD&D/AD&D to 2E, and now to 3E). It seems to me the amount of time the typical player spends underground has been reduced (maybe 20% top side and 80% down below with 1E; to one of about 60% top side 40% below with 3E). It was suggested that the artwork of these different editions reflects this switch in focus.

If such a shift truely did occure, why? If you read the modules from the 70s and early 80s and compare them with those written today, seem to be a difference...not just in length of story, but in actual adventuring going on in city and even micro-lairs. So whats the deal with the shift? Did 1E's dungeon crawl focus just get boring and too linear (as in this room is connected by a hall to that room) for todays crowd saturated with computer games that encourage you to go anyware, or is it a more fundament? Or maybe 1E and 3E are so different now they aren't really even comparable (with other games more similar to each)?

I'm not sure what you are getting at here, that is, what is your basis for comparison? Are you comparing only TSR modules from the 70s and early 80s or any D&D approved module? Are we also limited to what's within the covers of the modules or how people played? Finally are we lumping all of OD&D and 1e and 2e in one bag? That's a very big bag, as the module market changed drastically over those years.

For example, let me start with OD&D, since that is what I started with. IIRC when I started in '77 there were very few "modules," but a big one everybody seemed to have was City State of the Invincible Overlord, which provided many above ground adventures and run ins with the law, let's just hope your trial is on a holiday. But that is not TSR so you may be excluding that.

Your implied recollections, doing mostly dungeons, are at odds with my memory of play in the 70s. When I was a young adventurer we had to walk 20 leagues through the snow to get to the dungeon, fightin' the whole way. In game time we certainly spent more time adventuing, tracking, scouting, questioning locals for adventures, treasure and information to help us survive the dugeons, etc. than in the dungeon. To use "old school" phrasing we called it role-playing, not roll-playing, and there was a lot of it since there were no rules to just roll for it. I realize that many groups may have just played, "pop" your there, and next week with a new module it was "pop" your there as well.

On the other end of your comparison, with respect to computer games, what games are you referring to? I'll admit my experinece with computer RPGs is limited, but all non-on-line games I've played fit the "classic" dungeon crawl to a T.* Sure you kill things "outside" (different texture set) but the environment has little or no impact on play. Just change the textures and it's a dungeon.

Or is the real question of your post:

Or maybe 1E and 3E are so different now they aren't really even comparable (with other games more similar to each)?

*"classic" in quotes since in the table-top RPG you could try to talk to anything, throw down food, destroy parts of the environment, use parts of the environment to your advantage etc., none of which you can do in CRPGs unless it is scripted.

 

[Xyanthon]

I most certainly have seen a shift occur in theme for OD&D up to 3.x and beyond. The earlier incarnations of the game were pretty much about scouring the dungeon and getting loot. Long, involved story arcs with in depth characterization were the exception and not the rule as far as published adventures are concerned. Over time, the shift to a more player focused game emerged. I think people began to want to rationalize why there was this crazy 30 level dungeon in the middle of nowhere. You can see this shift in the computer games of the time too. As has been mentioned, games such as Wizardry, Might and Magic, Bard’s Tale, etc. started as dungeon crawls but eventually evolved into more open ended games such as Morrowind and the online games such as Everquest and WoW to mention a few.

I like a good dungeon crawl with all the wackiness that it entails sometimes. I also like character and plot development over the course of time. So for me, the evolution of the game is good because it gives me so much to choose from in what I want in a game. I can focus on story, I can do a dungeon crawl, I can focus on role-play, or I can mix and match. It isn’t that people weren’t doing these things before; they were. It just seems that they way the “official materials” have been written, they tend to focus on different things. That has been my perception at any rate.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

1E = 10' squares

3E = 5' squares

 

[Raven Crowking]

Tough to say. IME, in 1e you could have far more encounters before levelling up (of course, we didn't use GP=XP) and before needing to retreat (less reliance on buff spells). Combats didn't last as long, so you could actually get somewhere in a dungeon environment. Stat blocks were a lot shorter and easier to generate, so you could write up a three-level complex over the course of an evening.


IMHO, of course.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

IYour implied recollections, doing mostly dungeons, are at odds with my memory of play in the 70s. When I was a young adventurer we had to walk 20 leagues through the snow to get to the dungeon, fightin' the whole way. In game time we certainly spent more time adventuing, tracking, scouting, questioning locals for adventures, treasure and information to help us survive the dugeons, etc. than in the dungeon. To use "old school" phrasing we called it role-playing, not roll-playing, and there was a lot of it since there were no rules to just roll for it.

QFT.

 

[Nifft]

1E = 10' squares

3E = 5' squares

QFT.

The whole "one minute round" thing got to me in 1e. I like the time & space scale of 3.5e lots better.

Cheers, -- N

 

[tx7321]

MB: "Do you want to ask about why the shift away from dungeon-crawls and to more variety in adventures, or insult people who play computer games?"

Oh, that must be it !

Mate, I play computer games, always have...always will ...and no, I'm not insulting anyone...just stating an obvious trend in computer games over the last decade, one of increasing options. Anyhow, I never said there were NO modules set above ground, or investigative in nature, only that the majority were not **so 1E appears on the surface to be different then 3E in this way** and that mate, is the topic of this thread "How have dungeons changed in D&D".

One thing to consider is that above ground adventuring can be v. similar to delving. Think about it, moving through rooms in a building, or down narrow confined alley ways and streets, forest trails, ravines and the like. So perhaps the "dungeon crawl" still exists in a way, just presented in a different fashion. The "board" is still there, but you can move around it with more freedom.

As far as 1E modules go, I think the topside parts were left undeveloped on purpose, to allow the DM and players interacting to create the story of whats going on (who they talk to, how they get to point A to B, what wacky adventures they have on the way...that all develops "in game", it wasn't usually written down. I remember exploring Homlet and taking days (in game time) checking out other places in and around the village, as the DM made up stuff on the spot...some of which were just as cool as the module itself.

The plots you saw in 2E and later in 3E seemed to keep the players from drifting off into their own thing, and over almost explain too much.


Roth: "Your implied recollections, doing mostly dungeons, are at odds with my memory of play in the 70s. When I was a young adventurer we had to walk 20 leagues through the snow to get to the dungeon, fightin' the whole way. In game time we certainly spent more time adventuing, tracking, scouting, questioning locals for adventures, treasure and information to help us survive the dugeons, etc. than in the dungeon. "

Agreed, and thats what we did as well. The difference I'm noting is the actual module. For instance, if you take a look at White Plume Mnt. its only a half page of intro, yet when we first played it, we spent days (real time) getting to the dungeon area. And the trip was as fun as the dungeon itself! But note, the DM and players came up with all that "story line" it wasn't written down or suggested (as it often is 3E modules, in plot, ecological and anthropological descriptions, DM notes, etc. So, yeah, I agree with you. In 1E, the details are in the dungeon, but still a majority of game play can occure outside of it, depending on what the players do.

 

[Vague Jayhawk]

I feel pretty silly about this now but...The Assassins Knot was an absolute ground breaking adventure for me.

I was pretty young and had only done dungeon crawls before. I played through the adventure and was amazed that you could have adventures that were above ground.

 

[tx7321]

John: "
"You see that progression even within AD&D 1e. Wilderness Survival Guide and Manual of the Planes were both late in 1e's life (and though many 1e purists hate them"

The late 1e stuff (everything including and post UA) could and IMHO should be looked at as a 1.5e. Sure some of the modules after that point were good, but for the most part the company had aleady switched tracks, and this can be noted in the change in intros.

When I look at a module, I'll first flip through it to see if there is a nice sized dungeon with rooms numbered and corresponding room descriptions (the "where's the beef" test) if I can't find any or very little, its usually something post 1E. Part of this shift in module design, (focusing on above ground stuff) undoubtedly has something to do with "padding" making more pages to up the price of the product that much more. Most would laugh at the idea of paying $15 for a 12 page module, but for a 30 pager, they'll bite (even if there's only 12 pages of meat and the rest is just backstory filler).