How dungeons have changed in Dungeons and Dragons

[WizarDru]

Hussar, Every dungeon has one path basically, (with one final big treasure at the end that must be found if you want to advance); dungeons, after all, are nothing more then a set of rooms and halls leading to a final showdown,

But that has nothing to do with the edition at all, which was Hussar's point. Compare "White Plume Mountain" with "Flood Season", for example. Both are large dungeons with multiple goals (retrieve weapons, wands) with multiple big challenges, both lack a single 'boss' (one never faces Keraptis). Unlike WPM, Flood Season actually provides for the motivations of the villians and what they'll do if they realize that adventurers are in the complex....whereas WPM is more of an elaborate deathtrap from a taunting wizard.

An exercise to the reader would be to compare the differences between the original White Plume Mountain and the free Revised Edition from WotC and it's associated web enhancement, "Outside the Mountain". In many ways, that sums up the differences in presentation and narrative flow, right there.

Your other exmples of being stuck on an island or "other world" and needing to find some key to get out is not the same as railroading either, and, if you think about it, is not much different then going into a dungeon and having the main door lock shut, or the entrance hall collapse.

I disagree entirely. The examples given are classic examples of railroading. If you choose to enhance the printed page, that's outside the scope of the module itself. The players don't get into a situation where the slavers capture them...they are told purely as a matter of record that what has happened has happened, regardless of any input they might have. If I start the module in media res and force motivations and choices on the players, that is railroading. Whether or not that was necessarily a problem depended on the individual group. One could easily argue that the beginning of the Tomb of Horrors is perfectly within the realm of accepted and expected player setup. The issue was more relevant when you tell a player he's just suddenly lost all of his equipment and wealth, regardless of how powerful, paranoid, clever or well-defended he might have been prior to the start of the adventure. In the context of an ongoing campaign, as opposed to a tournament (the source of many earlier modules), this comes across as ham-fisted and inelegant, at the least.

I agree that in the context of an adventure, the players are moderately limited in their options...but compare and contrast an adventure like 'Speaker in Dreams' or 'The Standing Stones' (neither of which I actually think that highly of) where the players actually have a fair degree of freedom in the order they investigate the core mysteries. SiD features a flowchart, and TSS features a timeline of sorts. A greater emphasis on verisimilitude is present.

A module like Tamoachan, one expects to walk in, possibly be trapped and have to fight your way out. That's part of the biz. But in one like "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil", the party expects that this won't happen every time they foray into the dungeon...in fact, throughout most of the Crater Ridge Mines, the players will swiftly notice the change in direct reaction to their continued assualts.

The core dungeons haven't changed nearly so much as the framing of those dungeons, the expanded motivations provided around it and then audience to which it's offered.

 

[Aloïsius]

D&D does not exist in a vacum. It has to deal with CRPG, other pen&paper RPG, miniatures, and even LARP. Evolve or die : OD&D can't survive in its original form if opposed to Diablo, Warhammer, Earthdown and the world of darkness. Thus, 3E.

 

[tx7321]

Q: "The players don't get into a situation where the slavers capture them...they are told purely as a matter of record that what has happened has happened, regardless of any input they might have."

Sure, thats the starting point of the module. What the players do at that point is up to them.

Anyhow, when comparing periods in anything you have to look at the majority of work. The majority of early 1E period modules were not railroading, the majority of 2E era modules were. Same with 3E. And thats not to say there worse, there just different.

 

[diaglo]

D&D does not exist in a vacum. It has to deal with CRPG, other pen&paper RPG, miniatures, and even LARP. Evolve or die : OD&D can't survive in its original form if opposed to Diablo, Warhammer, Earthdown and the world of darkness. Thus, 3E.

evolution involves a lot of death. those things that don't cause you to survive better cause death.

evolution is also a very long, long, long, long process. it ain't gonna happen over night. in most cases it takes many generations.

diaglo "still playing OD&D(1974) and loving it" Ooi

better to pick a better analogy

 

[ssampier]

1E: You start in the dungeon.

2E: You start in the tavern and a mysterious stranger tell you about....

3E: You start in the tavern, showing off your spiked chain and tattoos.

...

A goal is not railroading. A goal is a purpose. Railroading is "Oh, and you get captured regardless of what you do." (Slavers... and Dragonlance. )

Well said!

 

[Qualidar]

Sure, thats the starting point of the module. What the players do at that point is up to them.

You can't throw out the entire railroading portion, and then say: "except for the railroading, there is no railroading."

The majority of early 1E period modules were not railroading, the majority of 2E era modules were. Same with 3E.

That's a ridiculous statement. There were definitely heavy railroad adventures in the late 1e/2e era (and the worst & most numerous were in 2e), but to say the "majority" of 3e modules are railroads is just wrong, unless we're applying your incorrect definition above (it's a railroad if there's a plot).

~Q~

 

[MerricB]

I think part of the reason the DMG came out that way is because it was being rushed out the door. Remember the complaints from gamers when 3E was released that they had to wait a month for the DMG and month for the Monster Manual (or was it the other way around)? The AD&D DMG was released around a year after the AD&D PHB was released and that was about a year after the AD&D Monster Manual was released.

I was talking about the AD&D 1e DMG, Glyfair. Is that "rushed out the door?" The 3e DMG is a masterpiece of editing and structure in comparison.

Cheers!

 

[The Hound]

It seems to me the amount of time the typical player spends underground has been reduced (maybe 20% top side and 80% down below with 1E; to one of about 60% top side 40% below with 3E).

Sonny, I can remember when it was 0% topside and 100% down below. For my first dungeon all I had was a dungeon, and I'd start everyone at the bottom of the stairs inside the entrance.
There was supposed to be a "town" outside with a magic shop and a weapons shop, but events there were never roleplayed - the shop's only function was to provide a rationale for players to cross off gold pieces on their character sheets and put in items just before the game began. My friend's "campaigns" were the same way.

 

[Endur]

Railroading is something that turns off many old schoolers who prefer not be tied up into the writers plot (like cheap romance heroes in some dime store pre-teen romance novel). This is nothing new mind you. It started with Dragonlance, really hit its stride in 2E and has carried on today. Compare that with a classic like B2. Your at a keep, there's treasure in those caves. Do what you like. There is no plot beyond this. Anything else that develops is of the players' or DM's creation. There is no, finish 1 then go to 2, after 2 go to 3 B....ll sh...t.

I always liked B2 The Keep on the Boarderlands.

 

[tx7321]

Hound, you have no idea how much I like to be called sonny these days.

I agree with the above poster. 2E and late 1E had major railroading going on in their modules.

My favorite modules with a paragraph intro to get you to the dungeon, a nice blue map withhalls and rooms numbered and bulk of the text made up of corresponding room descriptions (which takes up the rest of the module).

Yeah, I always liked B2 as well.