D&D 5E How I handle stealth/hide/attaking while "hidden"

[Uller]

I've seen a few threads struggling with this concept. There seems to be some confusion on when you can hide, when you are spotted and when you can benefit from being hidden. Here is what we have found works for us at our table.

When a character is out of sight of a creature he wishes to hide from (or otherwise in a situation where he can hide...a wood elf in foliage, for instance) he may take the hide action and become hidden (this happens automatically).

The character can become spotted in three ways:

1) a creature moves to where it has line of sight on the hidden character. At that point the hidden character must make a stealth check to remain hidden long enough for some effect. If the character is at least lightly obscured and beats the creature's passive perception he can remain hidden. If the character is not obscured, he'll be noticed regardless.* But he might have a moment or two to get off a readied action or something.

2) The hidden creature does something that will reveal itself (attacks, moves from it's hiding spot, casts a spell with V or S components, etc) but wants to briefly maintain it's hidden status during this action.

3) A creature takes an action to actively search for the hidden creature.

*If the situation warrants, the character can move a bit to remain hidden. For instance, if he can slip around a nearby corner or move around a tree trunk/pillar he can remain hidden.

So a couple of examples:

A rogue is being pursued by a guard. He ducks down an alley, uses cunning action to hide behind some crates and readies a crossbow attack on the guard if he enters the alley. When the guard enters the alley he has LOS on the rogue. At that point the rogue gets a stealth check. If he succeeds, he gets to make his crossbow attack while hidden. If not then he gets to make the attack but without being hidden. If the guard is being cautious (i.e. actively searching for a hidden rogue), then I'd let him make a perception or investigation check against the rogue's stealth check. Otherwise, it's just passive perception. If there are no good hiding places (the alley is empty) then the guard gets advantage on his perception (i.e. +5 on passive perception). In the narration of this example, the guard turns the corner and (if the rogue's stealth succeeds) it takes him just a moment too long to notice the rogue to properly defend himself.

Another: The guard moves past the alley. Now the rogue wants to move 10' to the alley entrance then poke around the corner to shoot the guard from behind. In this case, the rogue makes his stealth check to gain advantage on the attack (vs passive perception unless the guard is actively looking and being cautious or has good reason to think the rogue might attack from the alley). If the rogue has to move a bit in the open to get a good shot, he might have disadvantage on his check. He could move, attack from hidden (on a successful check), move back and use cunning action to hide again all in one round.

This has worked well for us at our table. YMMV.

 

[KarinsDad]

If there are no good hiding places (the alley is empty) then the guard gets advantage on his perception (i.e. +5 on passive perception). In the narration of this example, the guard turns the corner and (if the rogue's stealth succeeds) it takes him just a moment too long to notice the rogue to properly defend himself.

This should not be the case. If the Rogue can hide, he can hide. If not, then not.

At the point that the guard enters the alleyway, the Rogue is already hidden if he took the hide action. The total cover of the corner of the building (or whatever) gave him a hiding place.

So, the guard enters the alley and it becomes a normal #1 of your above. No need for additional rules here.

"1) a creature moves to where it has line of sight on the hidden character. At that point the hidden character must make a stealth check to remain hidden long enough for some effect. If the character is at least lightly obscured and beats the creature's passive perception he can remain hidden. If the character is not obscured, he'll be noticed regardless.* But he might have a moment or two to get off a readied action or something."

 

[Saeviomagy]

2) The hidden creature does something that will reveal itself (attacks, moves from it's hiding spot, casts a spell with V or S components, etc) but wants to briefly maintain it's hidden status during this action.

Note that while in some previous editions V components were loud and S components were grandiose, 5e only requires you to be able to whisper and wiggle your fingers without further DM ruling.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Everyone's stealth rules and interpretations differ. Personally I prefer a "realistic" as opposed to "gamist" approach to hiding, meaning that outside of an ambush scenario, you mostly either cannot hide, or the hide attempt is at disad. Additionally, I dont use passive perception, everyone just rolls, and hiding mid-combat is treated as a contest (dex stealth roll vs wisdom perception roll). As long as your table knows the likely approach you are going to take re stealth/hiding when creating their PCs, you're golden. Where you get problems is if players think hiding will work one way, and it turns out not to, and they "built" their PC around that misunderstanding...

 

[Quartz]

This should not be the case. If the Rogue can hide, he can hide. If not, then not.

From what [MENTION=413]Uller[/MENTION] has written, in this case there's no hiding involved - the guard simply gets Advantage on his Perception roll to spot the Rogue. How often do you miss something when you quickly check, even when it's in plain sight?

 

[Mercule]

Note that while in some previous editions V components were loud and S components were grandiose, 5e only requires you to be able to whisper and wiggle your fingers without further DM ruling.

Does it explicitly say, somewhere, that a whisper is okay? Or does it just not say that it isn't?

This question just came up and I ruled that it is neither shouting nor whispering, just normal voice. So: stealth is at a disadvantage, but it doesn't automatically draw attention. Since we're in Eberron, though, I've also said that magic will conform to RAW, if there's something explicit.

 

[Leatherhead]

From what [MENTION=413]Uller[/MENTION] has written, in this case there's no hiding involved - the guard simply gets Advantage on his Perception roll to spot the Rogue. How often do you miss something when you quickly check, even when it's in plain sight?

Too often, damn my keys.

 

[Uller]

Everyone's stealth rules and interpretations differ. Personally I prefer a "realistic" as opposed to "gamist" approach to hiding, meaning that outside of an ambush scenario, you mostly either cannot hide, or the hide attempt is at disad.

Interestingly, my real life experiences are why I run stealth and "hiding" the way I do. I served in the Infantry for a few years (also I was a tanker and a combat engineer...that's right...3 MOSs...that's what happens when your NG unit keep changing) and I played paintball for years when I was younger. I play and coach ice hockey. The primary benefit of stealth and deception in tactical combat is to gain just a momentary advantage. The way I play stealth (or using an action like help or any action meant to distract your foes) is to simulate that. It's most relevant to rogues because of sneak attack.

Some examples that have happened to me in real life...and I figure if these things can be done in real life, a larger than life D&D character could do this and more:

1) In a 3v3 paintball tournament a game it was down to just one other player and myself. This was "speedball" (open field with "bunkers" made of inflatables, pallets and other objects). The other player and I were exchanging fire from behind two bunkers with one bunker in between (we were about 30'-40' apart), each of us popping up, shooting a burst to try to drive the other player back behind cover and ducking back down when fired upon. I drove him back, three times I let him pop up and shot at him from the same position as he tried to move or shoot. After the third time, I moved forward to the bunker that was between us as quietly and quickly as I could so that when he popped up the fourth time if he assumed I was still in the same place (i.e. I made my stealth check) then I would have a clean shot. He did. Fatal mistake. Head shot. Game over.

2) Frequently in games in the woods I would take a position forward of my team or off to a flank along a path our opponents were likely to take. I learned (from experience and my military training and from the little hunting I've done) that you don't shoot at the first opportunity. You shoot when you have the greatest advantage and you have to know when that is. The point of maximum advantage is often just at the moment your target notices you or at a point where he is far from any good cover so he doesn't have any good options if you miss your first shot. People who have never done it would be stunned at just how invisible you can become by just staying very still or just be being in a position your opponent doesn't expect, even if you are in plain sight. In one instance, I was in some thin bushes, looking straight down a path that led over a small hill (reverse slope...it's bad because your enemy can gain an elevated position, it's good because the hill can divide the enemy force to maximize your fires against a minimum number of targets). If multiple foes came over the hill I was going to shoot the first one to force them to cover and then flee to a better position (delaying action). But only one came...he had the same idea I did but I got there first. He clearly didn't see me...I waited while he got closer and closer. As soon as he started to crouch down (like he might be getting ready to shoot) I shot a three round burst at his chest and (here is why I remember this), one paintball must have had a weird spin because it curved up at a sharp angle and hit him in the neck under his mask (ouch! I felt horrible). He groaned and dropped like I shot him for real. I was only about 25' away so it must have really hurt. Afterwards he told me he had no idea I was there until he got hit (we were friends which is probably why he didn't kick my a**). He was just crouching because he thought he heard something.

3) In a training exercise in the army I was part of an ambush. We had positioned ourselves in a ditch along a road and on a hill overlooking it. When the enemy came into the kill zone we opened up on them but they had two other squads, both of which charged up the hill from a side we couldn't fire on. They took the hill and started moving down it toward the ditch (where I was). I happened to be out of sight of the force coming down the hill and most of my brothers were suppressed. So I broke away and moved up the hill, underneath their view and was stunned at just how far I could move without them seeing me (good ol' reverse slope again). I got into a good position to fire, killed three of them but unbeknownst to me one of them was behind the same rock I was using and came around behind me and killed me.

4) In another exercise my squad was the OPFOR for a platoon evaluation. The actual exercise was to evaluate them on how they take prisoners. So my squad was to attack their defended position and some of us were to surrender. I was supposed to open fire on anyone that came out to take prisoners without first making sure it was clear. A fire team came out, stood in the open. Before they could take the surrendering soldier's weapons, I fired killing two. The other two fled and managed to get to cover. I fled and the platoon leader sent a fire team out to find me and the one other soldier that remained alive on my team. We were separated and he started exchanging fire with them. There was a nice rise between me and them and me and the platoon's defended position. I was able to use that to make several attacks on them from a flanking position without them figuring out where I was. I killed one. Two dropped out of sight and the forth dropped onto his belly but couldn't see me. Once someone is down in the prone it is hard for them to maneuver so I was able to get to his side, come up close to him and move to his rear for a killing shot before he could react. At that point the Observer Controllers (the equivalent of refs) asked me to surrender so they could re-evaluate them on the task they were supposed to be evaluated on...They were _pissed_. Zip ties really hurt when they are put on a bit too tight...

5) In another paintball example most of the opposing team were hiding among piles of tires and were exchanging fire with my team (in a 10v10 game). I had managed to also slip into the tire pile. My gun was a low pressure and very quiet gun which was kind of a new thing at the time. I got myself into a spot where I had a clear shot from the side at anyone that popped up to shoot. I got three kills before their team started to collapse and got over run and the game ended. When it was over, I stood up and they saw where I was...they were stunned. Even the ones I had shot had no idea where I had shot them from.

I have lots of other examples...including the time I was manning an observation post and a blackhawk helicopter managed to sneak up on me...(I could here it but couldn't see it until it was too late and I was dead).

So basically I want to encourage my players to use stealth and subterfuge because that's what real combat is (yes, I know that there is a difference between a sword fight melee and a fire fight).

And yes, my players are aware of how I run things before they build their characters (and I'm pretty flexible with letting them make changes in the event of a misunderstanding)

 

[Uller]

From what [MENTION=413]Uller[/MENTION] has written, in this case there's no hiding involved - the guard simply gets Advantage on his Perception roll to spot the Rogue. How often do you miss something when you quickly check, even when it's in plain sight?

It happens more frequently than you think. Have you never startled someone coming around a corner in a bare hallway because you knew they were there and they didn't know you were there.

 

[KarinsDad]

From what [MENTION=413]Uller[/MENTION] has written, in this case there's no hiding involved - the guard simply gets Advantage on his Perception roll to spot the Rogue. How often do you miss something when you quickly check, even when it's in plain sight?

Go back and reread what he wrote. The rogue was using cunning action to hide .