On the topic of there being gods but much reduced. I would have that ascension to true godhood would require restoration of the world and reversal of the defilement as the world cannot support a population needed to maintain ascension.
D&D 5E How I'd rewrite Dark Sun... what changes would you make?
- Thread starter Steampunkette
- Start date
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
@Steampunkette has her own psionics system (an awesome one!) that isn't magic. One would assume that is in play here.
From 2e:
Arcane Magic defiles.
Divine Magic (Including what we'd consider Primal Magic, today) doesn't.
Psionics aren't magic and don't defile.
Clerics are using elemental magic, but it's granted from Elementals, and treated as Divine, essentially. Druids, like Clerics, also get their spells and powers from elementals but it's less "This powerful Elemental Lord is standing in for a god" and more "Every rock and tree and creature has a life has a spirit and grants me power so long as I protect them."
So I'd just be building off the setting rather than trying to impose 5e's "Everything is the Weave" narrative onto it all.
dave2008
Legend
I am aware and I own it! However, the OP asked us what we would do, so I was clarifying as she didn't even mention psionics in her OP
dave2008
Legend
OK, my perspective is a bit different from the 2e and core 5e. It sound like you are just using the 2e version is that correct?
Yeah, basically. Kind of blending the 2e and 4e versions to make the 5e version.
jmartkdr2
Hero
An idea: maybe Tyr formally banned slavery, so there's at least one city-state where (on paper) slavery isn't a thing. This does set up Tyr as the "good guys" but I think a setting like DS needs a really shiny point of light to not get lost in its own grimdarkness.
Of course, emancipation does not mean freedom form poverty or exploitation, you just can't be bought and more importantly your children have more potential opportunities.
Of course, emancipation does not mean freedom form poverty or exploitation, you just can't be bought and more importantly your children have more potential opportunities.
Twiggly the Gnome
Legend
How about this...
... The gods aren't dead, they're prisoners of the Sorcerer Kings! These bound deities are the fuel for the Sorcerer Kings' process of apotheosis. The first Sorcerer King to fully absorb their imprisoned god was Borys, who consumed the god of dragons.
... The gods aren't dead, they're prisoners of the Sorcerer Kings! These bound deities are the fuel for the Sorcerer Kings' process of apotheosis. The first Sorcerer King to fully absorb their imprisoned god was Borys, who consumed the god of dragons.
Hexmage-EN
Legend
A single article in 4E introduced the concept of a primordial-worshiping cult called the Broken Builders. Their basic gist is that they wanted to restore the primordials so that they would destroy the world as it is and make it new. That might be an interesting enemy faction with some more optimistic members who think the primordials will fix everything and more nihilistic members who just think the world should end to put everything out of its misery.
As for slavery, if I were running this just for a single group and not something to publish for mass consumption I'd probably have fighting against it be almost impossibly hard as a means to sell how desperate this world is and how IRL slavery couldn't just be stopped with a ragtag group of heroes. After all, when faced with staying in bondage or being freed to thirst to death on a dying world (provided one of the many psionic horrors of the desert doesn't kill them first). That's how I've depicted duergar slavery before; "oh, sure, leave our safe and well-defended enclave, but good luck with beholders and purple worms and grell and bulette and the many other things that will try to kill you, at best. Here, take this vial of poison just in case you run into any mindflayers."
As for slavery, if I were running this just for a single group and not something to publish for mass consumption I'd probably have fighting against it be almost impossibly hard as a means to sell how desperate this world is and how IRL slavery couldn't just be stopped with a ragtag group of heroes. After all, when faced with staying in bondage or being freed to thirst to death on a dying world (provided one of the many psionic horrors of the desert doesn't kill them first). That's how I've depicted duergar slavery before; "oh, sure, leave our safe and well-defended enclave, but good luck with beholders and purple worms and grell and bulette and the many other things that will try to kill you, at best. Here, take this vial of poison just in case you run into any mindflayers."
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
I dont want points of light Dark Sun, I what dystopian wasteland where the wilderness is arid death and the scattered cities are dominated by either Tyrants and their enforcers or by Warlords and fearful mobs. I like the encounter approach of Dark Sun adventures, where PCs get caught up in the petty incidents of bullying, oppression and corruption in a city and that leads them to make connections with the different factions vying for control and to have to make choices between multiple bad options.
I also really really like defiling magic, its a sweet flavour that differentiates it from Vancian style and marks the difference between the Templar elite and others who try to call on magical power. I also like the visuals of the Nobles controlling water supply and growing verdant gardens specifically so it cn be corrupted for magical power And I like the moral conundrum that even Preservers face to use their ability.
Nobles controlling water also allows for explicit slavery to be replaced by water-rationing. Overseers who demand service in return for a cup of the life sustaining liquid, whilst their noble masters waste it on vanity projects.
Scorcerer-Kings certainly dont have to be all heading for Dragon apotheosis and there could be different varieties of Scorcerer-King - seeking to become Dragons, Liches, Elementals or even Avangions. I wouldnt have gods but rather Immortals, other beings in the world who are not S-Ks but who have already achieved their Apotheosis, it would allow for cults and entities outside the cities to exist in the worlds tapestry of competing factions served by Warlock Hexblades as much as by Templar Paladins.
I also liked the PCs being participants in the Tyr rebellion and overthrow of Kalak, so I’d keep that adventure (modified) and then see how the various factions vying for control play out.
Im also inclined to use another city like Raam instead, they were inspired by the overthrow of Kalak and now seek to free their own city from tyranny.
I also really really like defiling magic, its a sweet flavour that differentiates it from Vancian style and marks the difference between the Templar elite and others who try to call on magical power. I also like the visuals of the Nobles controlling water supply and growing verdant gardens specifically so it cn be corrupted for magical power And I like the moral conundrum that even Preservers face to use their ability.
Nobles controlling water also allows for explicit slavery to be replaced by water-rationing. Overseers who demand service in return for a cup of the life sustaining liquid, whilst their noble masters waste it on vanity projects.
Scorcerer-Kings certainly dont have to be all heading for Dragon apotheosis and there could be different varieties of Scorcerer-King - seeking to become Dragons, Liches, Elementals or even Avangions. I wouldnt have gods but rather Immortals, other beings in the world who are not S-Ks but who have already achieved their Apotheosis, it would allow for cults and entities outside the cities to exist in the worlds tapestry of competing factions served by Warlock Hexblades as much as by Templar Paladins.
I also liked the PCs being participants in the Tyr rebellion and overthrow of Kalak, so I’d keep that adventure (modified) and then see how the various factions vying for control play out.
Im also inclined to use another city like Raam instead, they were inspired by the overthrow of Kalak and now seek to free their own city from tyranny.
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I believe it's stated somewhere that any water bound in defiled vegetation is destroyed along with the plants. The ash from defiling is unlike the ash from burning, in that it is completely free of nutrients, and nothing can grow in that area for at least a year, and only then can the surrounding area try to reclaim it.
Also, in canon a lot of the water of the planet was destroyed in one way or the other. During the Blue Age, Athas was supposedly covered in water, which was drained away during the first major use of the Pristine Tower that heralded the Green Age. It's not impossible that the same happened when the Sorcerer-Kings were created and Borys ascended. Does it make scientific sense? No, but neither does defiling so...
Yeah, I know...
I just hate it because if that's the case, there wouldn't -be- water in a liquid state in the other direction. Humidity across the planet would be in the 0-1% range and every plant and animal would die of dehydration because there wouldn't be any precipitation. What water people have on hand would be all that exists. And once drunk or spilled or fed to plants it would be forever gone.
There's gotta be a balance in which what water is available (Mostly from Rain) is inherently toxic and there's never enough of it for comfort or satiation. Just barely enough for the world to struggle on in a miserable state of climatological horror!
FitzTheRuke
Legend
I'd buy it.
Lotta water in this picture... none of it easilly accessible!
Sins is still in the works. I'm running a game in the setting actually.
But I can't do the AI Art gambit with it. I've gotta get enough money to do all the art in the book in advance, so it's back-burnered as far as release is concerned.
That said... it's not like Wizards would -let- me do Dark Sun... so...
Scribe
Legend
If I remember, it was hitting some of the same notes you have here, but its been some time.
Blue Orange
Gone to Texas
What are the copyright implications of making a Bark Run setting using one of the creative-commons versions of OSR?
Sketchy, I'd think. Much like with the OGL kerfuffle, even if you'd probably win, it won't be a slam dunk where the judge just tosses the suit. It'll be a legal battle most creators couldn't begin to afford.
The fan content policy seems like the best chance IMO. Wizards could of course shut you down if they felt so inclined, and you couldn't make any money off it. But if one were to pitch it to Wizards as an opportunity to "test the waters" with a decidedly non-official version... maybe?
Great topic. I hope some more posters come to answer this question from the other several threads where they're arguing about WotC and the portrayal of controversial topics.
Some replies:
Thing is, I think the sorcerer kings, as presented in 2e are all doing things that make sense, and aren't following entirely the same paths to power. They are all in a security dilemma with each other and Borys which, so far, they only know how to get out of by becoming a dragon. And, having seen Borys's insanity and the bandwagoning against Dregoth, they're all afraid to pursue that same path to dragonhood and are either trying to cheat it somehow or putting it off. Kalidnay and Kalak tried to skip some steps by defiling-to-death their own cities, Nibenay is endlessly researching workarounds, Hamanu seems to have decided he's gonna get over the hump by being militarily stronger than everybody else, and the others seem like they're deliberately postponing apotheosis. I think you could change the details of some of those strategies a little bit and have it work for you (hamanu is developing a weapon to kill and replace the dragon, Abalach-Re's thinks--possibly incorrectly--that she can create a new diety and then use its power).
-----------------------------------
My rewrite:
Personally, I would not set Dark Sun in the aftermath of Kalak being overthrown, since that setup has already been done, essentially, twice. I would want it to be at least somewhat different in geographical or temporal scope.
So, instead, my rewrite would jump forward 100ish years and ambiguously incorporate the Prism Pentad, i.e. it's been a long time since the revolution in Tyr, the tablelands have changed, and, without writing or widespread awareness, events regarding rajaat et al. are forgotten or mere rumors. I would also handwave some of the class and race/species differences between editions (goliaths as half-giants), and add a bunch of new locations to the tablelands map with cool minor settlements or strange biomes (like the stone jungle you described). These things will be written as though they have always been true. Essentially a soft reboot.
What's going on after 100 years?
Things are mostly worse. With Borys and several sorcerer kings gone, Dregoth made his move. He and his dray subjects sacked and occupied Raam, made Draj and Tektuctitlay's "son" his tributaries, and went to war with Urik, Nibenay, Gulg, and Tyr. The conflict is still simmering. Balic is gone, destroyed by giants, and everything south of Altaruk is wilder and very different. The leader of Tyr died days ago but, rather than the tyrant Kalak, it is Sadira, representative of Tyr's preservers, who is gone (old age). Her absence has destabilized the factions of Tyr (Guilds, Nobles, Templars, Free Citizens, and Preservers), left it an open question whether neighboring Gulg or Urik will encroach, and made it easier for defilers in the area to escape retribution.
None of the cities practice slavery, they have other forms of oppression.
The urban residents of each city are citizens who enjoy the safety of the walls and are entitled to subsidized water and grain. Outsiders must live beyond the walls or in separated districts and pay ruinous prices for foodstuffs. The wages they make as laborers are barely enough to cover living costs and unpaid debt is a crime punishable by imprisonment as gladiators. Tyr doesn't treat outsiders this way, but it has no water or grain subsidy and crowding has forced newcomers to reside beyond the walls anyway--and Tyr's guilds and nobility are suddenly suggesting that it might be better if they did things more like the other cities.
It is the stated expectation of play that PCs come from points of light type villages, are not citizens of Draj, Gulg, Nibenay, Raam, or Urik, have to deal with obnoxiously high prices for supplies in cities, and cannot seek shelter in any place that's actually safe from bandits and desert monsters. This isn't meant to be a better presentation of the setting, it's just done to keep things friendly while maintaining themes.
Defiling
Its hard to make PC rules that match the setting fluff without preservers just being frustrating nerfed wizards. Also, I don't want 'defiler' to be a class; defiling should be a choice and a daily temptation, not a profession. I think I'd try to accomplish this via modified resting rules for all casters that reduce the number of spells they recover on a long rest--and let wizards/warlocks/sorcerers/bards cast spells for free and with no special mechanical cost if they choose to defile (but someone might see, and druids can smell it on you). This way the setting is lower magic overall, resource management/wilderness survival challenges are accentuated, and arcane casters don't feel singled out for nerfs.
I'm sure I'll have a bunch more ideas about it, but this post is too long already.
Some replies:
I don't hate that. I'd perhaps go a step further and have them be trying to preserve history, culture, art, and so on. I'd characterize what they're doing as tilting at windmills to some extent--all their projects are moonshots--but have it be clear that the work is worthwhile and motivates them to carry on in a fallen world. They would differ from druids in that they are fundamentally trying to improve communities and make Athas better for people, with druids being more like militant ecoterrorists who speak for the trees. I'd also want to describe the preservers as a region spanning organization of secretive semi-autonomous cells, rather than a bunch of different groups organized at the city level.
Love the stone jungle. More weird and appropriately themed biomes to interact with would be great.
A bunch of big conceptual things in the setting don't really make sense. It maybe goes too far with lack of water, and the Sea of Silt is very wierd. But I'd also say that the rarity of metals doesn't make a lot of sense--Iron is the 4th most common element in the earth's crust (5%), can be prospected by looking for outcrops of it, and the city states clearly have the technology to mine and manufacture it. I'm not sure we want to pull at those threads too hard unless we're determined to come up with thouroughly worked out answers to most of them (though I'd absolutely love to see it if someone did).
I don't mind them all aspiring to be dragons, but I agree with you about the avangion dichotomy being weak sauce.
Thing is, I think the sorcerer kings, as presented in 2e are all doing things that make sense, and aren't following entirely the same paths to power. They are all in a security dilemma with each other and Borys which, so far, they only know how to get out of by becoming a dragon. And, having seen Borys's insanity and the bandwagoning against Dregoth, they're all afraid to pursue that same path to dragonhood and are either trying to cheat it somehow or putting it off. Kalidnay and Kalak tried to skip some steps by defiling-to-death their own cities, Nibenay is endlessly researching workarounds, Hamanu seems to have decided he's gonna get over the hump by being militarily stronger than everybody else, and the others seem like they're deliberately postponing apotheosis. I think you could change the details of some of those strategies a little bit and have it work for you (hamanu is developing a weapon to kill and replace the dragon, Abalach-Re's thinks--possibly incorrectly--that she can create a new diety and then use its power).
-----------------------------------
My rewrite:
Personally, I would not set Dark Sun in the aftermath of Kalak being overthrown, since that setup has already been done, essentially, twice. I would want it to be at least somewhat different in geographical or temporal scope.
So, instead, my rewrite would jump forward 100ish years and ambiguously incorporate the Prism Pentad, i.e. it's been a long time since the revolution in Tyr, the tablelands have changed, and, without writing or widespread awareness, events regarding rajaat et al. are forgotten or mere rumors. I would also handwave some of the class and race/species differences between editions (goliaths as half-giants), and add a bunch of new locations to the tablelands map with cool minor settlements or strange biomes (like the stone jungle you described). These things will be written as though they have always been true. Essentially a soft reboot.
What's going on after 100 years?
Things are mostly worse. With Borys and several sorcerer kings gone, Dregoth made his move. He and his dray subjects sacked and occupied Raam, made Draj and Tektuctitlay's "son" his tributaries, and went to war with Urik, Nibenay, Gulg, and Tyr. The conflict is still simmering. Balic is gone, destroyed by giants, and everything south of Altaruk is wilder and very different. The leader of Tyr died days ago but, rather than the tyrant Kalak, it is Sadira, representative of Tyr's preservers, who is gone (old age). Her absence has destabilized the factions of Tyr (Guilds, Nobles, Templars, Free Citizens, and Preservers), left it an open question whether neighboring Gulg or Urik will encroach, and made it easier for defilers in the area to escape retribution.
None of the cities practice slavery, they have other forms of oppression.
The urban residents of each city are citizens who enjoy the safety of the walls and are entitled to subsidized water and grain. Outsiders must live beyond the walls or in separated districts and pay ruinous prices for foodstuffs. The wages they make as laborers are barely enough to cover living costs and unpaid debt is a crime punishable by imprisonment as gladiators. Tyr doesn't treat outsiders this way, but it has no water or grain subsidy and crowding has forced newcomers to reside beyond the walls anyway--and Tyr's guilds and nobility are suddenly suggesting that it might be better if they did things more like the other cities.
It is the stated expectation of play that PCs come from points of light type villages, are not citizens of Draj, Gulg, Nibenay, Raam, or Urik, have to deal with obnoxiously high prices for supplies in cities, and cannot seek shelter in any place that's actually safe from bandits and desert monsters. This isn't meant to be a better presentation of the setting, it's just done to keep things friendly while maintaining themes.
Defiling
Its hard to make PC rules that match the setting fluff without preservers just being frustrating nerfed wizards. Also, I don't want 'defiler' to be a class; defiling should be a choice and a daily temptation, not a profession. I think I'd try to accomplish this via modified resting rules for all casters that reduce the number of spells they recover on a long rest--and let wizards/warlocks/sorcerers/bards cast spells for free and with no special mechanical cost if they choose to defile (but someone might see, and druids can smell it on you). This way the setting is lower magic overall, resource management/wilderness survival challenges are accentuated, and arcane casters don't feel singled out for nerfs.
I'm sure I'll have a bunch more ideas about it, but this post is too long already.
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