How important is it that a dungeon makes sense?

My answer: Not at all. Dungeons don't have to make sense. They need to be fun. If, by making sense they are made not fun, there's no point.

Conversely, if by not making sense, they're made not fun, there's no point either.

The fact is that there are a lot of different styles of playing D&D. Making the most realistic world ever has never been particularly high on my list of what I do when I run the game, as opposed to creating situations that are fun for the players to encounter. There are times when coherency in the dungeon is definitely a bonus, especially when that coherency leads to a puzzle that the players can solve because they've noted the coherency. However, it's certainly not the only way to play.

I'm a big, big fan of fun-house dungeons, which applies to a lot of my current AD&D game. Does it have a more serious side? Yes, but it's likely that people who want realism are going to hate the game. (OTOH, I have on several occasions had over ten people wanting to play... forcing me to turn some away). The main thing is to have a game which people want to play, and to understand why your friends want to play the game with you.

It isn't going to be the same for everyone, and closing down avenues of design because some people want "realistic" dungeons is a bad decision.
 

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How important is it that a dungeon "makes sense",
Extremely.
and what does that mean to you?
That the dungeon layout, location, current state, etc. all make sense within the context of the setting. That way when I make assumptions about what's there, what the place might have in it, what type of things we might find, etc., I'm not essentially guessing or mislead. I'm open to surprises, and even things "not making sense" to me (as long as the DM knows why it's there), but I need it to make sense or I'll get (at the very least momentarily) pulled out of any sense of immersion I'm experiencing.
If it is important, would you still be able to enjoy a "nonsensical" dungeon if its nonsensical because it exists in a dream or in an afterlife limbo of some sort?
Absolutely, and that sounds like it could be a lot of fun. Nonsensical "makes sense" within the context of dreams (especially non-human dreams), supernatural areas, alien locations, etc. I'm totally down for just guessing about what could be there; it might even increase my immersion.
 

Depends on what you mean by "making sense" as well. For example, when I ran the World's Largest Dungeon, there were a number of examples where the dungeon didn't make any sense - such as a goblin tribe's area being cut in half by walls with no way for one side to visit the other, or having a large number of large creatures in a room that couldn't possibly fit inside.

So, yeah, when it's blatant like that, it has to make more sense - there has to be a way for the goblins to travel from A to B without getting eaten. There shouldn't be ten size large creatures in a 20 by 20 room. That's just mistakes.

But, then you can get down to the niggly details. Why are corridors and rooms so big in most dungeons? It really doesn't make much sense. There's no reason that tunnels in a mine would be ten feet across and you generally wouldn't have chamber after chamber either. But, this gets into practical aspects in play. In a dungeon of tiny rooms and 5 foot wide corridors, most of the combat is going to be "One guy standing in the front, and everyone else not being able to participate very much". And that's no fun. I remember a rather lengthy discussion of Paizo modules (by [MENTION=3586]MerricB[/MENTION] IIRC) talking about this. Is it more realistic to have narrow, twisting 5 foot corridors? Sure, absolutely. Is it more fun? Well, not so much.

While it might be good for an encounter to have the fighter fighting in close spaces, on his knees in a three foot high corridor, it's going to get old really fast.
 

Well, the standard answer applies here ... it depends.

For most dungeons, I prefer a sensible ecology. But there are lots of scenarios that can be set up where there's a nonsense ecology that is perfectly sensible for the scenario. As in everything from the "Mad wizard stocked dungeon" to "Prison for unmentionables" to "Killer trap" (i.e. Undermountain, Banewarrens, and Tomb of Horrors).

There's also those adventures that don't intrinsically make sense, but are a blast to play anyway. Two of my favorites in that vein are Dungeonland and Land Beyond the Magic Mirror.
 


To me, it means that the players can make inferences about features in the dungeon (monsters/NPCs, tricks, traps, treasures, and layout) and make meaningful decisions based on those inferences. That is very important to me.

Just going to + 1 this. When I'm running 1e dungeon crawls, this is paramount.
 

To me, it means that the players can make inferences about features in the dungeon (monsters/NPCs, tricks, traps, treasures, and layout) and make meaningful decisions based on those inferences. That is very important to me.
That is an excellently concise description of the whole issue.
 

First of all: please watch the smiley in my messages; they're there for a reason.

If that were true, then we would expect the following to be true: "There are no dungeons in the real world."

But, that statement is profoundly untrue. The real world is filled with dungeons, including some truly stupendous mega-dungeons that probably vastly exceed the scope, scale, and size of anything that's been published. People actually built these things, for a real reason, and those reasons are often varied and interesting. Granted, they don't usually have anything like monsters living in them, but presumably if monsters were real, then they'd find lots of places to feel right at home in the real world.

I understood the term "dungeon" in this thread to mean the typical underground environment as used in D&D adventures: extended underground complexes, inhabited by an admixture of different creatures, and being their own type of societal system.

Out of curiosity, what real-world underground dungeons do you refer to? On that scale, I can only think of the underground cities of Cappadocia, maby the catacombs of Rome.

Considering the other list of idiosynchrasies, they really refer to the classical, one level on a sheet of graph paper dungeons of old. As an example, let me quote from memory some "features of the underground lair of the naga in N1: Against the Cult of the Reptile God:

The dungeon is situated in a swamp. The building troglodytes erected a low wall around the entrance hole, so the water wouldn't flood their dungeon.

On the first level we find an underground lake, while the second level sits directly beneath the first one. The lake apparently poeses no problem for the second level.

There's a secret door between a jail-complex and the throne room of the naga.

While the trogs as predominant inhabitants might be ok with lacking ventialtion, swamp gas and the rot which would occur, we also have the naga and some humans living under these condition.

All in all, this makes no sense to me. But it's a fun dungeon, anyway. :) And that's the gist of it: a dungeon doesn't have to be logical or scientifically correct.

My answer to the question posed in the title of the threat is just "Hell, no!"
 

The game has been set in worlds where enormous flying lizards with lethally bad breath have populations high enough to support a dozen distinct species. Oh, they are often smart and usually greedy? Yeah... I do think folks are gonna build their strongholds underground a HELL of a lot more often than they did IRL.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu_Underground_City
 

I understood the term "dungeon" in this thread to mean the typical underground environment as used in D&D adventures: extended underground complexes, inhabited by an admixture of different creatures, and being their own type of societal system.

I generally accept the term "dungeon" to mean a wider range of environments than that. For example, "Castle Ravenloft" is a castle, but also a "dungeon". The Pyramid in "Pyramid" is well, a Pyramid shaped tomb/temple complex, but also a "dungeon". As for inhabited by a mixture of different creatures and being their own type of societal system, in the real world we really only have humanity (plus perhaps its pets and vermin) as possible example in that role, so naturally we won't have the Star Wars cantina diversity possible in a D&D setting. Nonetheless, for these purposes I'll largely confine my examples of real world (potential) Dungeon complexes to underground complexes, and not make much mention of examples of above ground abandoned ruins of the real world that would make or inspire excellent "dungeons" in a monster filled world - say Alcatraz Prison - even if it is a literal dungeon.

Out of curiosity, what real-world underground dungeons do you refer to? On that scale, I can only think of the underground cities of Cappadocia, maby the catacombs of Rome.

Actually, the catacombs of Rome aren't that extensive. They are more numerous than extensive, as there are like seven or so smaller complexes. The real champion for real world underground dungeon of that sort is the Paris Underground, whose catacombs, subway tunnels, sewers and the like extend for literally hundreds of miles of passageways. Like many truly emmense real world dungeons, these began as stone quarries. People needed stone for the city above, and it was convenient to mine it from underneath wherever you were going to put the building and just raise it to the surface. Gradually, these got larger and larger. Eventually people decided that it would be a waste to not use all that space, and converted them over to things like catacombs - necessary because the graveyards of Paris were in some cases raised to 20' high because of the bones accumulated there.

While smaller, the London Underground, Moscow Underground, and New York underground are or similar scale. Not surprisingly, many of the largest and most famed dungeons of my homebrew world have exactly the same sort of backstory as the Paris Underground - people built where stone could be quarried, the town grew, and they just kept digging up stone.
Eventually they started repurposing these spaces as catacombs, temples, fortresses, viaducts, cisterns and sewers, marginalized people started treating them as homes, and in the abandoned parts things moved in. If you want a truly collosal dungeon, just imagine one of these huge cities and its underground gets abandoned or taken over by monsters. That's more dungeon than you'll ever be able to use.

Other sorts of mines get similar vast and complicated. The Wieliczka salt mine in Poland has 180 miles of passages, and more or less contains an underground city for the workers (and again, repurposed space). And there are literally dozens of massive mine/quarry complexes of that scale around the world, many of which date back to antiquity, they just don't all pop into my head right now.

Another common real world dungeon is the underground fortress. Cheyenne Mountain and Burlington fall into this category. China has several of that scale, including one under Beijing. Washington by rumor is honeycombed with these sort of things, beginning with an escape route beneath the White House (which has at least six sub-basements) designed to get Lincoln out if the city fell in the Civil War, and just expanding thereafter. Many of these military 'dungeons' have literally hundreds of miles of passage ways, and underground cities meant to house thousands. The Maginot line though is probably the champion in scale however, as it was meant to house literally 100,000's of thousands of troops. On the smaller scale, there are literally hundreds of abandoned missile silo complexes that are as large as typical "dungeons" in stand alone modules.

You mention Cappadocia, which is merely the largest/oldest of many underground city examples. For your typical 50 room dungeon, there are many more examples.

What you don't mention is all the natural cave complexes in the real world, the biggest of which is Mammoth in Kentucky, but there are hundreds if not thousands containing 10 or more miles of passage around the world, and uncountable numbers as large as the average dungeon. Lechguila/Carlsbad in New Mexico, Wind and Jewel in South Dakota, Ox Bel Ha and Nohoch Nah Chich in Mexico, Er Wang Dong in China, Holloch in Switzerland, and Optymistychna in the Ukraine have a scale that puts most anything that has been published to shame. This is real world on a scale that approaches the 'Under Dark'. String a few together and populate them with beasties, and you'd have more Under Dark than you could explore in a campaign.

And again, this is just "underground", and I'm only focusing on 'megadungeons". Once we expand into ruins we get literally hundreds of amazing ruins of every sort we'd find in D&D module, many of which are bigger than most D&D modules. The Pabst brewery in Wisconsin would make an amazing dungeon.

Considering the other list of idiosynchrasies, they really refer to the classical, one level on a sheet of graph paper dungeons of old. As an example, let me quote from memory some "features of the underground lair of the naga in N1: Against the Cult of the Reptile God...

N1 would be a classic example of a low realism dungeon. And, at best, I confess that looking at an 'old school' dungeon like that I have the sort of condescending appreciation for it that an adult might have for the work of a child: "Oh isn't that nice. And you stayed inside the lines too." Given that it was a first attempt in a newly discovered artform, allowances must be made, but the entire thing looks so sloppy, amateurish, and ill-conceived to me now that I'm just entirely boggled. As a 12 year old DM in 1985, dungeon features like that bothered me then, and been beneath the standards I held myself too designing my own. (The map in X1: Isle of Dread has similar hydrology issues, and had to be redesigned.) And that was before I took college classes in speology.

All in all, this makes no sense to me. But it's a fun dungeon, anyway. :) And that's the gist of it: a dungeon doesn't have to be logical or scientifically correct.

If someone was running the dungeon for me, I might enjoy myself, but I'd be also thinking, "Nice for a first effort, but isn't this corridor supposed to be running through the middle of the lake we boated across on level 1? And for that matter, isn't this entire complex below the water table?" If I purchased the module today, I'd be somewhere between angry and resigned: "Oh great, another module where I have to completely redraw the map! Doesn't anyone have a sense of craftsmanship these days? I thought we got past this crap in the mid-80's!"

The point being, there is really no excuse for having a dungeon that is nonsensical but lack of skill and knowledge. The real world doesn't constrain your imagination - it informs and expands it. There is no classic dungeon that you can't point to examples that would be of the type in the real world; all you have to do is move the monsters in.
 

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