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D&D 5E How Important is it that Warlords be Healers?

Should Warlords in 5e be able to heal?

  • Yes, warlords should heal, and I'll be very upset if they can't!

    Votes: 43 26.5%
  • Yes, warlords should be able to heal, but it's not a deal-breaker for me.

    Votes: 38 23.5%
  • No, warlords should not be able to heal, and I'll be very upset if they can!

    Votes: 24 14.8%
  • No, warlords shouldn't be able to heal, but I don't care enough to be angry about it if they can.

    Votes: 31 19.1%
  • I don't really care either way.

    Votes: 26 16.0%

Nemesis Destiny

Adventurer
Wait... what?!
Pointing out neither side can claim to be the majority is "making the numbers do cartwheels"?!
*sigh*

Claiming that this poll in any way shows that respondents are either pro- or anti- warlord is a stretch of any kind of truth here, and what I described.

Only 17, now 15.6% of those polled responded that they actually would be upset at the inclusion of an option for a healing warlord; statistically significant, yes, but smaller than the percentage that would be upset without it, AND even those could easily ignore that option in favour of other options presented.

Every other option on the poll is either in favour of it, or doesn't care about healing warlords one way or the other.

How can you claim to be "With D&D... any edition" if you want to support making a fifth of the audience angry?
It's closer to a sixth, and I can make that claim because I feel that every edition has something to offer to the game as a whole. I have played and enjoyed every edition in some capacity over the years. However, because I believe that every edition has something to offer, I also believe it would be a grievous mistake to omit the things from those editions that the audience might hold dear, such as healing warlords, to appease a different segment of said audience.

Next is supposed to be "inclusive" so I support inclusion. That means things like healing warlords. There is a faction that hates it, but sorry, inclusion means tolerance of the preferences of others. Tolerating the preferences of others means acknowledging that someone may want to play in a way other than what you might prefer, and that you may just have to ignore some options that are not to your personal liking.

Just like every other edition of the game.

Good Day Sir.
 

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/sigh

Why does "not part of the base rules but included as an option in the first PHB and/or DMG" somehow equates with "not wanting the option in the game"?
 


mlund

First Post
Warlords don't necessarily have to be able to heal. They do have to be able to stop damage. I'd be happy with a Warlord that can't restore Hit Points post facto, but can use an Interrupt to prevent / reduce damage and some sort of Action or rider-effect on his action to grant Temporary Hit Points to an ally.
 

pemerton

Legend
4e designed around the basis of the mechanic.

<snip>

5e is starting with the story first, describing what the class is in the world, what its role is, how it is unique and then looking at mechanics. Or so we've been told.

When you start with the story, you'll always get a good world hook.
I'm not sure that I especially agree with you about 4e. Concepts like "Knight Commander" or "Questing Knight" don't seem to me to be particularly "mechanics first, story second". Nor does the warlord - when I look at the warlord I see a story first - an inspiring and/or insightful combat leader - and then the mechanics that implement that.

And I'm pretty sure that I disagree with you that starting "story first" will always lead to a good world hook. When I read the 4e class descriptions I don't feel any radically compelling world hook, and they don't speak to me of some especially engaging fiction in contrast to 4e.

Backgrounds are different in that respect. I think they are a good idea, probably the best thing I've seen in Next - they have elements of 4e's themes or paragon paths to them, but frontload it in PC building. I think the game could be strengthened by developing them further than they currently have been.
 

pemerton

Legend
Again, it’s always easier to add than subtract.
I think this claim is obviously false.

Here are some examples where it is easier to subtract than to add:

* If you want a game with scene-based conflict resolution, the game has to be built around that possibiilty (even when it is, look at the trouble 4e had in getting the maths right!). Trying to add this sort of mechanic into a game not designed to support it from the get go is not at all easy. If the option is built into the game, though, it is very easy to ignore for those who don't want it - the Burning Wheel books make the point, for instance, that not every game of BW has to include every complex resolution system in the rulebooks.

* If I want really fun dragon encounters, that are mechanically workable, capture the traditional flavour of a terrifying, fire breathing wyrm, and that won't devolve into stunlock vs dragon, then I probably want professional designers to design my dragons, and perhaps also to design other elements of the system so as to make those dragon encoutners viable (again, look at the trouble 4e had getting dragons right). If someone doesn't want to run dragon encounters (and I'm to some extent in that category - I don't hate dragons, but I much prefer demons and undead) then I just ignore the dragons in the monster list.​

No doubt there are some different instances where it is easier to add than to subtract. But that is not at all a general truth.

But when subtracting something from the game it’s less obvious what the effects will be or if you’re forgetting anything.
Subtracting dragons from my game isn't going to have any unintended consequences that I can see. In 4e, the consequences of subtracting the cleric from my game are clearly spelled out - if the players want a leader they'll have to build a warlord, bard, shaman or ardent. And in AD&D, nothing at all is going to happen if I subtract half the polearms on the weapon list. (Even subtracting the longsword probably won't have any non-obvious consequence.)

I'm sure there are some cases where subtraction can have unforeseen consequences, but I don't think there is any reason to think that it generally will, or that those consequneces will be any more severe than the unforeseen consequences of adding things (look at all the warnings in classic D&D, for instance, about adding new spells or new items - the designers clearly thought that adding that sort of stuff could be potentially gamebreaking).

Warlords are not the only example of inspirational healing in 4e. Once it made the decision that hitpoints would not be health there was second wind and various other non-magical healing. So taking out the warlord doesn’t solve the problem because you also need to remove second wind, which means you need to find a new dwarven racial power. And there are feats and powers tied to second wind and dwarves and warlords.
The feats are neither here-nor-there - 4e has so many feats that the game would survive the excision of a dozen or so of them. But you are correct that trying to remove inspirational/martial healing from 4e would be a near-hopeless task.

But adding is finite. You’re taking a self-contained addition such as second wind, inspirational healing, and the like and adding it into the game.
The idea that you can just add inspirational healing to a game designed without it and have it all work smoothly strikes me as pretty optimistic. As you yourself have pointed out, making it work in 4e involves embedding it into the systems from the ground up.

The origins of the Avenger class come down to needing a divinestriker.
It’s unique defining mechanic is basically Advantage.
It’s flavour paints it as an offensive paladin or aggressivecleric. “Divine assassin” isn’t a class, it’s a character, a narrow archetype.
I don't really see the reasoning whereby mystical assassin is too narrow to be a class, but armour-wearing priest of the Knights Templar variety - ie the traditional D&D cleric - is not. The divine assassin picks up a good chunk of the monk archetype (which Monte Cook tackled in AU with the Oathsworn), plus the religious zealot idea as well, which I think has a reasonable degree of popular currency.

And the unique defining mechanic for the classic D&D cleric is healing and turning undead. I'm not seeing how that's radically broad compared to the avenger's movement and Oath of Enmity.
 

ZzarkLinux

First Post
I heard from another thread that the 3.5 PHB states "Cure Light Wounds cannot restore lost limbs".

If that's true, then all "HitPoint Loss" seems to be minor cuts-and-scratches.
e.g. Cleric casts Cure Light Wounds, which restores 50 HitPoints !!! But it's all cuts-and-bruises.

IMO It's not that hard to stretch that kind of healing to Warlords.
 

Pour

First Post
Find me one warlord in any book whose battle field role is "healing"

4E+Players+Handbook.jpg

Sorry, I know this is cheeky, but with that kind of comment what else can you respond with?
 
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Your examples seem to indicate you believe every field NCO is a warlord -- if that's the case I respectfully suggest that its not a class, but a common feature like a feat any combatant could take. I'd further point out that they inspiration techniques they use -- while broad strokes -- are turned to the people they are trying to affect and there are those that don't respond to them and wash out of training.

Tossing a new tactical guy into a group that has trained together and knows how each other work is likely to frustrate everyone for a while -- not make the trained group more effective. In effect the coordination bonus granted by 3.5 fits better.

No, I don't at all think every NCO is a 'warlord' that isn't true at all. I just think there IS an archetype that the warlord fits, the NCO. It isn't even the ONLY one it fits, others have been mentioned and are fairly obvious. They all share the core "inspiring combat leader" concept. Note, this is a different concept than the Bard, which someone suggested should replace the warlord. I could actually more easily fluff a 4e warlord AS a bard, but the two are quite distinct. The bard in fact is rarely a leader, he's more of a sidekick/supporting cast type guy in most stories.

I don't know why you insist on all the "party is just some mob" sort of talk. Most parties IME the characters spend months, if not years, adventuring together.
 

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