D&D General How important is leveling to the play experience (lvls 2-8)?

[Quartz]

When I was playing 3E the low teen levels was when it all came together. Of course, multi-classing was rampant and 2-3 classes plus a prestige class was the norm. Rock on the Ftr 2 / Kt 2 / Paladin 4 / Divine Crusader, the Ftr 4 / Mk (you'd be surprised how many Monk abilities work in armour), and the Wiz 3 / Sor 1 / Ultimate Magus,

Something else: I think it's not so much the levels of the PCs that matter but the levels of the spells they cast. A 3E Ftr 12 (or even 20) isn't that much different from a 3E E6 Ftr 6 with a few extra feats, but a 3E Wiz 12 is very different from the 3E E6 Wiz 6 plus feats.

 

[Cadence]

Something else: I think it's not so much the levels of the PCs that matter but the levels of the spells they cast. A 3E Ftr 12 (or even 20) isn't that much different from a 3E E6 Ftr 6 with a few extra feats, but a 3E Wiz 12 is very different from the 3E E6 Wiz 6 plus feats.

For the fighter at 20, that's a lot of extra hit points and BAB though compared to the he E6 fighter isn't it? (Are there usually limits.on how.ofyen you can take tough was or improves to hit in E6).

 

[Mezuka]

My games usually start at level 3 and end at level 9 or 10. I haven't tallied or awarded XPs since the middle of 2e. I tell the players when their characters level up. PCs level up after they accomplished a major goal, like finishing a long quest.

 

[Maxperson]

So, it seems common to have some BBEGs scattered around as the characters reach different tiers (ones that might not even be on the PCs radar at a lower level, and where the PCs might be way below the BBEG's noticing for a long time). So, somewhere out there in the world is a 20th level bad NPC. What is that NPC doing to warp the world while the PCs are moving on? (Say Saruman and Wormtongue going after Rohan, but with a lot more spell slots including things like teleportation). Is there going to be any free thinking king/leader who doesn't have a pretty high level NPC wizard or cleric at their side? Is it worth that king/leader investing in a castle without lots of enchantments or army without a couple of mid-to-high level wizards if the BBEG can just teleport in and drop storm of vengeance? What do all the enchantments to save the king from the BBEG do to anything the players might want to do in the castle? Does each 20th level BBEG have a 20th level good NPC keeping them in check, but without the ability to go take him out (and hence the need for the part)? What does a good 20th level NPC mean for day to day life of the kingdom, or do they have to not use their spell slots for fear the BBEG will show up?

I usually have the PCs encounter their low level plots. If a earthshattering BBEG is going to summon Cthulhu when the PCs are 16th-20th level, he's going to need various things for the rituals. A 1st level group might encounter some thefts of specific gems or other objects and perhaps try to thwart that, perhaps never realizing at that point that the thefts were minor minions of the BBEG sent to acquire them.

Not everything will be related to the BBEG, but it's nice when later on the PCs can put pieces together and be like, "Oh, now it all makes sense!!" The clues will mount as the party gains levels and they may realize who is responsible well before they can do anything about it directly.

 

[Lanefan]

I usually have the PCs encounter their low level plots. If a earthshattering BBEG is going to summon Cthulhu when the PCs are 16th-20th level, he's going to need various things for the rituals. A 1st level group might encounter some thefts of specific gems or other objects and perhaps try to thwart that, perhaps never realizing at that point that the thefts were minor minions of the BBEG sent to acquire them.

Not everything will be related to the BBEG, but it's nice when later on the PCs can put pieces together and be like, "Oh, now it all makes sense!!" The clues will mount as the party gains levels and they may realize who is responsible well before they can do anything about it directly.

It's cool if-when you can pull something like this off but IME it's inevitable - as in hard-code guaranteed! - that the players/PCs will left-turn somewhere along the line to focus on something completely unrelated and all that careful clue-dropping will go by the boards.

 

[Oofta]

It's cool if-when you can pull something like this off but IME it's inevitable - as in hard-code guaranteed! - that the players/PCs will left-turn somewhere along the line to focus on something completely unrelated and all that careful clue-dropping will go by the boards.

There have been times I've thrown out clues to the BBEG like candy and they would just sniff and hold their nose. So I'd throw out clues for a different BBEG, only to get the same response. Then I ad-hoc say something about purple orcs and suddenly everybody's looking at me like a kitten that just saw a bug on the floor and it's all they care about.

 

[Cadence]

There have been times I've thrown out clues to the BBEG like candy and they would just sniff and hold their nose. So I'd throw out clues for a different BBEG, only to get the same response. Then I ad-hoc say something about purple orcs and suddenly everybody's looking at me like a kitten that just saw a bug on the floor and it's all they care about.

Thinking of the years long running campaign worlds... I guess my question is, do all of the 20th level BBEGs have plans that are just in time with the PCs hitting 20th level (or after that), or are there good 20th level NPCs dealing with the ones that weren't conveniently timed for the PCs?

 

[Oofta]

Thinking of the years long running campaign worlds... I guess my question is, do all of the 20th level BBEGs have plans that are just in time with the PCs hitting 20th level (or after that), or are there good 20th level NPCs dealing with the ones that weren't conveniently timed for the PCs?

Other campaigns have dealt with other threats and retired PCs that are now NPCs may still be active depending on where we left off and what the player decided their "retirement" looked like. A couple of PCs from a previous campaign have become occasional sponsors of the PCs in the current campaign, others are busy running kingdoms or put away the sword for good.

But yes, a couple of old PCs are running around trying to put out fires. On the other hand, it's a big world and I frequently jump the timeline ahead 20-30 years between campaigns, especially if someone wants to play the kid of a retired adventurer.

 

[Helldritch]

There have been times I've thrown out clues to the BBEG like candy and they would just sniff and hold their nose. So I'd throw out clues for a different BBEG, only to get the same response. Then I ad-hoc say something about purple orcs and suddenly everybody's looking at me like a kitten that just saw a bug on the floor and it's all they care about.

Then your players are less suspicious than mine.
They are always looking for some BBEG pulling the strings. They even create their own BBEG without me being able to convince them that there was nothing there. And the more I insist, the more they are convinced that there is one. Since they want one, I give them one... It seems I can't have a campaign with unrelated adventures. They all must be with some kind of master mind villain... And the funny thing is, they themselves choose who and what will be the villain.

An easy trick is often to let a strong enemy say as it falls: "My master shall put you down!" Or "Where I have failed, others will succeed. You only delayed... (expiring breath)" And I garantee you that they will search and spend gold like crazy to find what it was all about. The old tropes still work. I assure you. Even after 40 years, they work.

 

[guachi]

I dare spewing my controversial opinion that an increased importance of leveling up comes from the campaign itself being unrewarding. When gaining levels and ability becomes the center of playing the game, it's a substitute for lackluster events and stakes.

This. And it became clear to me in my favorite D&D campaign (had a great DM) and from games that don't have levels, like when I GMed d6 Star Wars many years ago.

I thought I was a bad SW GM but they players were having so much fun fighting imperials that I'd get repeatedly asked to run games for my friends. I guess when every adventure was stick it to the Empire it was just naturally fun for the players.