How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

[billd91]

Indeed. Playing D&D does not require that you check your imagination at the door.

Indeed. Nor does it require you to agree with everybody else's imagining of how something works or even why it should or should not work.

 

[FireLance]

Indeed. Nor does it require you to agree with everybody else's imagining of how something works or even why it should or should not work.

With just one exception: your DM. Unless he doesn't really agree but lets it happen the way you describe anyway. Or unless you're gunning for his job.

 

[Sadrik]

"Come and Get It" is Close burst 3; Target: Each enemy in burst you can see.

Taunt a target invisible to you all you like, and no dice.

A target that can in no way perceive you, though, is subject to your will -- even more so with the errata that lets you dictate the movement precisely (as a "pull").

I am sorry, I have to chime in on this whole "come and get it" thing. I don't like this power because you have to use a power named, Come and Get Me and only a fighter can do it and only once in a limited time period. So what happens when the rogue raises his hands and yells at the group of blood thirsty orcs? They ignore him? It is up to the DM. If they were waiting for an attack they might attack. If they were already in combat or taking a crap they might not. The thing is the DM gets to decide if it is reasonable for them. So how do you call out someone in 4e?

 

[FireLance]

So how do you call out someone in 4e?

It is up to the DM... the DM gets to decide if it is reasonable for them.

You answered your own question.

4e really is no different from any other edition of D&D in this respect. Just because only thieves and rangers get to Hide in Shadows and Move Silently pre-3e, it doesn't mean that a fighter can't sneak past guards without the use of magic. It just means that it's a situation the rules don't cover and the DM has to decide how to resolve it. Dex check? Flat 50% chance? The DM simply determines success or failure based on the PC's preparations (Is he wearing armor? Is he wearing dark clothing?) and other environmental factors (What is the ambient light? How alert are the guards?)? The same methods apply in 4e to any PC who wants to get an enemy to approach him and doesn't have come and get it (or a similar power or ability).

 

[Intense_Interest]

I am sorry, I have to chime in on this whole "come and get it" thing. I don't like this power because you have to use a power named, Come and Get Me and only a fighter can do it and only once in a limited time period. So what happens when the rogue raises his hands and yells at the group of blood thirsty orcs? They ignore him? It is up to the DM. If they were waiting for an attack they might attack. If they were already in combat or taking a crap they might not. The thing is the DM gets to decide if it is reasonable for them. So how do you call out someone in 4e?

Page 42, applied judiciously.

I know there are many who will disagree with this assessment and I will ask: What makes magic "magical" to you?

Magic is the effects of a Magical World that can't be described through Mundane means. The D&D games we play are in magical worlds, and "A Wizard Did It" moment will occur because of that.

Come and Get it can be explained in the majority of cases in rational causes, if desired. If you run into a corner-case, your choices are to reduce some aspect of its use into "A Wizard Did It", or do deny the action under DM Fiat.

That said, we're thinking far too hard about fantasy here. Dragons can fly in an anti-magic field, to quote a recent OotS strip! In any Magical World, there are things that can't be simplified as mundane or it wouldn't be a Magical World. At some point, "A Wizard Did It"; and this is a great place to be.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Which explanation makes more sense? Mine, or the line of reasoning that says powers like CaGI must represent some form of deliberately unspecified magic/psychic mojo, despite they fact they're labeled 'martial exploits' (and never once referring to as magical powers).

Within the context of 4e?

Not yours.

RC

 

[Mallus]

Within the context of 4e?

Not yours.

RC

Well, why not Mr. Smartypants? Do you have a better explanation, or rationalization, as the case may be?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

It's not magic, it's metafiction.

This is a perfect description. If I could, I'd give you more XP. (Somebody help me out?)

What? Where did you see that in the rules?

Control weather isn't magic either. It just lets the player take over determining the local weather from the DM. LOL

And if I could, this would cost XP.

At some point the 4e hate just becomes a parody.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Page 42, applied judiciously.

Magic is the effects of a Magical World that can't be described through Mundane means. The D&D games we play are in magical worlds, and "A Wizard Did It" moment will occur because of that.

Come and Get it can be explained in the majority of cases in rational causes, if desired. If you run into a corner-case, your choices are to reduce some aspect of its use into "A Wizard Did It", or do deny the action under DM Fiat.

That said, we're thinking far too hard about fantasy here. Dragons can fly in an anti-magic field, to quote a recent OotS strip! In any Magical World, there are things that can't be simplified as mundane or it wouldn't be a Magical World. At some point, "A Wizard Did It"; and this is a great place to be.

I'm fine with the "a wizard did it" explanation of magical/ unexplainable effects. The default D&D world is a place of magic and not subject to realistic rules. Call it magic and move on. The only issue here is when a power or ability is supposedly non-magical.

Every class has abilities that are most easily explained by saying " a wizard did it". "Narrative control" would not be an acceptable explanation to an onlooker who witnessed such a power in action.

Every time I hear "the game rules are not the physics of the world" I think of a scene from Last Action Hero when the kid is in the police station. He sits and watches as a cartoon cat walks right in. Everyone just greets the cat and moves on. The kid starts wondering why nobody seems to care or notice that a cartoon cat is just walking around and talking.

The campaign world doesn't need codified physics laws for everything that takes place, because there is magic. What it does need is an explanation for things that happen that the world's inhabitants can relate to, even if that means simply magic or " by the will of the gods". The imaginary people of a fantasy world need to be grounded in some form of "reality" that has meaning to them even if its very different from our own.

 

[The Shaman]

For a game that is mostly dealing with imaginary situations of imaginary characters with imaginary combat tactics, there are a few that can't imagine it... Go figure...

You seem to be assuming that everyone imagines things the same way. In my experience that isn't the case.

What tickles one person's imagination may be totally naff to others. That doesn't mean they lack imagination - it means they approach the shared imaginary space that gamers create differently from one another.