D&D 5E How is 5E like 4E?

[Vaalingrade]

I don't see it. Feats are not even baseline in 5e. Sometimes I'm under the impression they just included feats as an option to avoid fan's outrage. Same with multiclassing.

Speaking of things brought forward from a previous edition treated like an artifact discovered by the world's laziest archeology intern...

-Here's a way to incrementally customize your character starting t level 1 and available at reasonable increments.-

--Makes them into major, character altering upgrade that takes forever to get even the first one, is called out as optional and interchangble with boring-ass numbers that are the only saving grace from the crushing burden of bounded accuracy--

Thanks guys. Thanks.

 

[Garthanos]

Speaking of things brought forward from a previous edition treated like an artifact discovered by the world's laziest archeology intern...

-Here's a way to incrementally customize your character starting t level 1 and available at reasonable increments.-

--Makes them into major, character altering upgrade that takes forever to get even the first one, is called out as optional and interchangble with boring-ass numbers that are the only saving grace from the crushing burden of bounded accuracy--

Thanks guys. Thanks.

Yes the either OR element sucks rocks...

They (the BaN) seems a bit feeble to save one from bounded accuracy (that numeric squash is a done deal).

 

[billd91]

But, it's also not a terribly unreasonable reading either. As was mentioned, there are a very large amount of ways to fast forward travel. Multiple classes get all sorts of things that make travel more or less trivial. Food and water? Goodberry, Create Water, Purify Food and Water appear on several spell lists - druid, cleric, ranger, paladin. Bards and Rogues both can shoot their skills into the stratosphere. It's not all that difficult to bypass travel and exploration challenges.

I get what you're saying that it is a choice, but, it's not a particularly difficult choice. "Here, you can use some fairly low level, easily replaced resources to bypass travel difficulties, or, you can deal with the difficulties that typically aren't tied to anything that you actually want to do" isn't really much of a choice.

Just because it’s an easy choice doesn’t mean it isn’t a deliberate choice. All of those methods give you plenty of ways to have an out if that style of play doesn’t thrill you. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t gaming tables that enjoy it, or that it can’t be worthwhile fun if that’s what you like. All it takes is the will to make it happen and the journey can be as interesting as the destination.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Just because it’s an easy choice doesn’t mean it isn’t a deliberate choice. All of those methods give you plenty of ways to have an out if that style of play doesn’t thrill you. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t gaming tables that enjoy it, or that it can’t be worthwhile fun if that’s what you like. All it takes is the will to make it happen and the journey can be as interesting as the destination.

So, why exactly should one engage with something, when the alternative is easier, faster, rewards players who didn't make choices purely around combat optimization, and doesn't come with the possibility of deleterious side-effects?

It's all well and good to say "choose the thing that makes a richer experience," but unlike, say, cooking at home where the only "cost" is generally "it went so wrong, you had to order food because the product was inedible," with exploration stuff far more extreme consequences are much more likely. "Why cook at home?" isn't well-answered with "because it can be enjoyable" when the odds of fire damage to your kitchen are non-negligible.

 

[Undrave]

Just because it’s an easy choice doesn’t mean it isn’t a deliberate choice. All of those methods give you plenty of ways to have an out if that style of play doesn’t thrill you. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t gaming tables that enjoy it, or that it can’t be worthwhile fun if that’s what you like. All it takes is the will to make it happen and the journey can be as interesting as the destination.

It's not only an easy choice, it's a badly explained choice.

The easy way out is right there, but what you GAIN from not taking that easy way out is not really well explained, nor is there much to help the DM make it an interesting experience.

All people see are a pile of busy work and fiddly book keeping, not what happens when it all comes together.

It's like how people don't even bother to learn how Dark Vision actually work, they just see it as an excuse to not have to worry about torches and stuff.

 

[billd91]

So, why exactly should one engage with something, when the alternative is easier, faster, rewards players who didn't make choices purely around combat optimization, and doesn't come with the possibility of deleterious side-effects?

It's all well and good to say "choose the thing that makes a richer experience," but unlike, say, cooking at home where the only "cost" is generally "it went so wrong, you had to order food because the product was inedible," with exploration stuff far more extreme consequences are much more likely. "Why cook at home?" isn't well-answered with "because it can be enjoyable" when the odds of fire damage to your kitchen are non-negligible.

It’s a game. What’s the cost of having fun?

 

[billd91]

All people see are a pile of busy work and fiddly book keeping, not what happens when it all comes together.

Unless, of course, what you see is adventure. Because, you know, that’s what adventurers do.
So much badwrongfunning in this thread...

 

[Vaalingrade]

Unless, of course, what you see is adventure. Because, you know, that’s what adventurers do.
So much badwrongfunning in this thread...

God, 'badwrongfun' is such a stupid anti-argument. Especially when used to argue that someone else's idea of what is or isn't fun for them is wrong.

 

[cbwjm]

God, 'badwrongfun' is such a stupid anti-argument. Especially when used to argue that someone else's idea of what is or isn't fun for them is wrong.

I know, right? Everyone is posting things which are their own opinions, I don't think anyone is going out of their way to explicitly state that what they're saying is the one true way and everything else is badwrongfun. It's one of those terms, along with strawman, that makes me tend to skip over certain posters.

 

[Minigiant]

I do wish they'd both kept healing surges, and kept tougher PCs at level 1. I think I'll be fixing that for the next game I run buy giving additional hit points equal to your hit die so that a fighter starts out with 20 + constitution modifier at level 1. Means things can be a bit more interesting and less lethal at that level. Probably won't bring back in healing surges though since we tend to use DnD beyond, though I could probably make a custom feat that does some of the math for the players.

What 5e did was go back to having a Rookie Tier.

4e skipped the Novice and Rookie Tier. First level in 4e was Heroic Tier. You 1st level 5e PC was a basic trained member of the class. They were green but they knew all their stuff and were strong enough to adventure.

5e took the 4e concept of tiers. 5e however pushed Heroic Tier to level 5. Levels 1-4 were the Rookie tier.

In 4e your 1st level fighter was a knight who just got knighted.
In 5e, your1st level fighter was a squire still in training.

4e stretched the Heroic, Master, Grandmaster,and Paragon tiers over the first 20 levels.
5e stretched the Rookie, Heroic, Master, and Grandmaster, tiers over the first 20 levels

Tier	Fighting Man	Magic User	Editions
Novice	Page	Mage's servant	This is where pre4e starts
Rookie	Squire	Apprentice Wizard	This is where 5e starts
Heroic/Expert/Veteran			This is where 4e starts
Master	Knight	Wizard
Grandmaster			This is where 5e ends
Paragon	Fighting Lord	Archmage	20th level 4e
Epic			Post 20th level 4e
Demigod	Undying Warrior	Archlich	This is where 4e ends

I hope 6e learns form 4e and 5e and stretches Rookie, Heroic, Master, Grandmaster, and Paragon tiers over 20 levels with a 0th level Novice Variant and a post 20th level Epic variant.