D&D 5E How is 5E like 4E?

[Nefermandias]

In general, I get the vague feeling that a fair number of the magic spells that were created by the pioneering players of early D&D were about trivializing travel and the exploration pillar.

You have to consider that casters used to prepare spells very differently than now days. Spell selection was a great part of the strategy and spells had to be assigned to specific slots.

 

[Neonchameleon]

You have to consider that casters used to prepare spells very differently than now days. Spell selection was a great part of the strategy and spells had to be assigned to specific slots.

And even with those higher costs people considered it worth spending spell slots to not play the travel and exploration game. Which says a lot about how much people enjoyed it back in the day.

 

[overgeeked]

You have to consider that casters used to prepare spells very differently than now days. Spell selection was a great part of the strategy and spells had to be assigned to specific slots.

And the spells offered more flexibility in the sense of creative play, the old light spell for example. You can use it for when the torches to out...or you can use it to blind a target. Loved that so much.

 

[loverdrive]

It may be true that WotC's info suggests people use short rests less than expected, but I don't think making them an hour long was a mistake. Rather, it makes resting in a dangerous environment more of a complication. As far as I'm concerned, this is a good thing. But the fact remains that the actual length of the short rest/long rest mechanics can be very easily adjusted to suit the table. I like the 1 hour short rest - the 5ish minutes of 4e was far too short.

I think that both 4e and 5e made a mistake of tying the resource recharge to in-game time instead of scenes and sessions.

 

[loverdrive]

It’s a game. What’s the cost of having fun?

I mean... If you have to consciously take an option that worsens your position in the game and your ability to contribute in order to have fun, there's something wrong with the design in the first place.

I call that "Dark Souls shield problem" (in Dark Souls PWE shields are very effective, but boring af), but I guess someone smarter than me has a fancier term.

 

[overgeeked]

I think that both 4e and 5e made a mistake of tying the resource recharge to in-game time instead of scenes and sessions.

Sort of. In 4E encounter powers were just that, based on the encounter or scene. They were technically tied to a 5-minute rest, but that's functionally meaningless 99% of the time. Though I agree about the longer rests in 5E and extended rest in 4E.

I mean... If you have to consciously take an option that worsens your position in the game and your ability to contribute in order to have fun, there's something wrong with the design in the first place.

Up to a point, yes. But fun shouldn't be contingent on always doing what's optimal or trying to win. Especially in an RPG. The point is the story and drama and playing a role, not optimization or "winning" the game.

I call that "Dark Souls shield problem" (in Dark Souls PWE shields are very effective, but boring af), but I guess someone smarter than me has a fancier term.

No idea what shields are like in Dark Souls.

 

[Undrave]

I think that both 4e and 5e made a mistake of tying the resource recharge to in-game time instead of scenes and sessions.

Simulationists would have lost their god-damned mind at this...

 

[loverdrive]

Up to a point, yes. But fun shouldn't be contingent on always doing what's optimal or trying to win. Especially in an RPG. The point is the story and drama and playing a role, not optimization or "winning" the game.

Yeah, but I think that story and drama shouldn't be a result of the player purposefully making a bad move with nothing to show for it.

There's a quote from st. Vincent that I absolutely subscribe to:

I don't want to hurt your character and then point to the rules and say "they, they made me hurt your character!" That's not what I'm getting at.

I want, if I don't hurt your character, I want you to point to the rules and say, "hey, why didn't you follow the rules? Why did you cheat and let my guy off the hook? That sucked." I want the rules to create a powerful expectation between us - part of our unity of interest - that I will hurt your character. Often and hard.

While he's talking about the game master, it applies to the players too. I, the player, don't want to deliberately make a bad choice that puts at risk my position and control over the game state when I have a better option.

I want to have options that all are bad for my character.

No idea what shields are like in Dark Souls.

They are exactly what I've described. They give protection and let the player to avoid the fun part of Dark Souls combat system -- taking bold risks, attacking and dodging just at the right time. Actually, they are less effective than two-handing a bid anime sword in the hands of a skilled player, but in order to become a skilled player you have to ditch the shield... So many newbies are running slowly crawling around with shield+spear combo and generally have a pretty bad time. Then, they either "get" it or drop the game, because it's boring.

In Bloodborne, where combat is generally similar, there are no shields... So the player must learn to play aggressively, in a risky, fun way. Many of them then go back to Dark Souls, play it the Bloodborne way and have loads of fun.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Up to a point, yes. But fun shouldn't be contingent on always doing what's optimal or trying to win. Especially in an RPG. The point is the story and drama and playing a role, not optimization or "winning" the game.

D&D's focus on trying to kill you as the loss condition makes 'winning' synonymous with 'continuing to be able to play this character'.

No idea what shields are like in Dark Souls.

It turns the game into an obnoxious rhythm game rather than an obnoxious action game people like to berate each other over.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Simulationists would have lost their god-damned mind at this...

They did!

I remember this leading to an argument over how a typical village couldn't afford to dig a hole or have doors in their prisons to imprison eladrin due to their teleport encounter power and thus law and order would instantly dissolve.