D&D 5E How is 5E like 4E?

[Garthanos]

I'm late to this party...but

Bounded Accuracy.

There is more of Bounded Accuracy (though it only goes to +15 rather than +6, meaning ability scores make things far more swingy in 5e than it did in 4e) in 4e than any other version of D&D prior.

yes the impact of squashing the math in half was to create more swingy d20 random chance being more important than character ability OR player choices than they were in 4e.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

yes the impact of squashing the math in half was to create more swingy d20 random chance being more important than character ability OR player choices than they were in 4e.

Well, that and just the weirdness of, well, yeah, what you said...

 

[Ovinomancer]

yes the impact of squashing the math in half was to create more swingy d20 random chance being more important than character ability OR player choices than they were in 4e.

I'm not sure I follow you, here. 4e put everything on a treadmill -- character ability mattered very little, as the spread from proficient to not was much smaller than in 5e. Meanwhile, the DCs were fixed on level, keeping the needed rolls for things the same -- and based largely on the result of the d20 because the bonus was accounted for in the level treadmill.

5e introduced a much broader range of difference between proficient and not, but the DC range is also much smaller. Remember that guidance for DCs is to set them almost entirely between 10 and 20. This ends up, by the end, of making the results very sensitive to character ability. At the beginning, it doesn't really, because the spread is so small (2).

 

[Nefermandias]

I'm not sure I follow you, here. 4e put everything on a treadmill -- character ability mattered very little, as the spread from proficient to not was much smaller than in 5e. Meanwhile, the DCs were fixed on level, keeping the needed rolls for things the same -- and based largely on the result of the d20 because the bonus was accounted for in the level treadmill.

5e introduced a much broader range of difference between proficient and not, but the DC range is also much smaller. Remember that guidance for DCs is to set them almost entirely between 10 and 20. This ends up, by the end, of making the results very sensitive to character ability. At the beginning, it doesn't really, because the spread is so small (2).

So you believe 4e DCs scaled accordingly to character's level? Like, a lvl one rogue trying to open a lock would have a DC of 15, but a lvl 18 rogue trying the same lock would have a DC of 25?
Because that's a rather baffling interpretation of the table at page 42 of the 4e DMG.

 

[Garthanos]

I'm not sure I follow you, here. 4e put everything on a treadmill -- character ability mattered very little,

Incorrect my character 4e character outclasses obstacles because of ability the fact that those specific obstacles are no longer considered obstacles and not treated as such is appropriate full stop that right there means your ability means more .... in 5e I can be challenged by the exact same things much longer that means my ability means less ... it was a goal of 5e that the same monsters or obstacles be useable against higher level characters embrace it.

Further I lack general competence in 5e for instance the same door that stopped me at low level in 5e will stop me just as much at high level in 5e unless I specialize in something for getting past that door. To contrast in 4e I get better even at things that arent my focus I get better at adapting what I know to situations particularly the old common relatively normal ones (ie things I didnt specialize in are not deep knowledge but represent adaptability) .... in 5e my brain seems damn near froze unless I specialize.

 

[Neonchameleon]

5e introduced a much broader range of difference between proficient and not,

Huh? Trained in a skill in 4e is +5. Proficient is +2 to +6. I'd hardly call this a "Much broader range" at any level.

And if you mean above baseline proficiency 5e is another +2 to +6 with some abilities that let you use a skill as a bonus/minor action. 5e has a number of +5 powers, skill focus feats, and a few other +2s or +3s and some abilities that let you use a skill as a bonus/minor action. I'd have said the 4e spread was actually larger

 

[Ovinomancer]

So you believe 4e DCs scaled accordingly to character's level? Like, a lvl one rogue trying to open a lock would have a DC of 15, but a lvl 18 rogue trying the same lock would have a DC of 25?
Because that's a rather baffling interpretation of the table at page 42 of the 4e DMG.

Why would they be picking the same lock? When would this actually happen?

 

[Ovinomancer]

Incorrect my character 4e character outclasses obstacles because of ability the fact that those specific obstacles are no longer considered obstacles and not treated as such is appropriate full stop that right there means your ability means more .... in 5e I can be challenged by the exact same things much longer that means my ability means less ... it was a goal of 5e that the same monsters or obstacles be useable against higher level characters embrace it.

Further I lack general competence in 5e for instance the same door that stopped me at low level in 5e will stop me just as much at high level in 5e unless I specialize in something for getting past that door. To contrast in 4e I get better even at things that arent my focus I get better at adapting what I know to situations particularly the old common relatively normal ones (ie things I didnt specialize in are not deep knowledge but represent adaptability) .... in 5e my brain seems damn near froze unless I specialize.

You mean character ability has meaning? I'm not following your argument. You claim character ability is being reduced in favor of the d20, but your example clearly shows character ability having a large impact in 5e. Whereas in 4e, you had to outpace challenges because the treadmill had to keep the chances of success the same. Your character ability had little to do with it -- it came free with level.

Now, if you want to say 4e kept things tight within your level band but 5e has a broader possibility range, ok. A DC 10 lock for a nonproficient character is as much a challenge at 1st as at 20th in 5e. But that same lock is a piece of cake for a proficient character, much less an expert. Meanwhile, in 4e, that lock is a challenge for both proficient and nonproficient characters at 1st, and a challenge for neither at 20th. Which leverages character skill?

 

[Nefermandias]

Why would they be picking the same lock? When would this actually happen?

That's what I get when I hear people say that 4e put the characters on a treadmill. It's like they are saying things keeps getting harder as you level up.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Now, if you want to say 4e kept things tight within your level band but 5e has a broader possibility range, ok. A DC 10 lock for a nonproficient character is as much a challenge at 1st as at 20th in 5e. But that same lock is a piece of cake for a proficient character, much less an expert. Meanwhile, in 4e, that lock is a challenge for both proficient and nonproficient characters at 1st, and a challenge for neither at 20th. Which leverages character skill?

Why would they be picking the same lock? When would this actually happen?

I think you've answered your own question here.

But the actual answer is that 4e leverages character skill far more. A 20th level 5e wizard or even fighter can have fought their way across the Bridge Over The Chasm of Despair, been through the Demonweb pits avoiding disturbing the webs - and will not be any better at trying to walk across a six inch wide beam six inches across the ground than they were at first level. It doesn't matter what they've done - they gain precisely no skill in most things.