How is a Monk viable?

[apsuman]

Monks need room to move.

Monks are the best "special ops" class in the game, (IMHO).

With improved disarm, they can be disarming machines. +4 from the feat, +4 from using a large weapon (the quarterstaff) means a STR 12 (+1) Monk can beat an equal level fighter with STR 18 (+3) (using a single handed weapon) most of the time. +0+1 (STR) +4 (quarterstaff) +4(feat) = +9 vs. +3 (STR) +3 (BAB diff) + 1 WEAPON Focus = +7. It gets easier for clerics, druids, bards, wizards, and sorcerers.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I have tried to show that monk is playable.

But the original question, and most of the discussion afterward, is based on the idea of a "standard" or Core Rules game. Your personal experience in a very low magic game doesn't have any bearing on that, so you haven't shown anything of the kind.

In my last campaign, I ran low-magic. I wound up with 2 characters with monk levels, and 2 characters with sorcerer levels, because it's relatively clear that those classes are better suited to a campaign with little to no access to magical loot. In comparison, the fighter is completely dependent on magical loot.

Personally, it's been my experience that monks are a great deal like paladins, in that they become viable in very high point-buy games, or games that roll for stats. Most other classes will waste several good ability scores, having a real use for only one or two. But the monk's special abilities--like the paladin's--let him really get the most out of a set of super-elite stats, and catch up to the others in effectiveness.

 

[Thanee]

Monks are the best "special ops" class in the game, (IMHO).

Hey, they cannot even find and disarm traps.

With improved disarm, they can be disarming machines.

Yes, that's the point of the feat.

+4 from the feat, +4 from using a large weapon (the quarterstaff) means a STR 12 (+1) Monk can beat an equal level fighter with STR 18 (+3) (using a single handed weapon) most of the time. +0+1 (STR) +4 (quarterstaff) +4(feat) = +9 vs. +3 (STR) +3 (BAB diff) + 1 WEAPON Focus = +7.

Not a very fair comparison.

How about a fighter using a two-handed weapon?
Or, if you insist on one-handed (well, a shield is kinda good), a locked Gauntlet for 8gp.
Or a fighter who has Improved Disarm, too?
Or all of the above?

Bye
Thanee

 

[apsuman]

Hey, they cannot even find and disarm traps.

Yes, that's the point of the feat.

Not a very fair comparison.

How about a fighter using a two-handed weapon?
Or, if you insist on one-handed (well, a shield is kinda good), a locked Gauntlet for 8gp.
Or a fighter who has Improved Disarm, too?
Or all of the above?

Bye
Thanee

Your points are well taken, I ran out of time before I could give other examples of where I think the monk class does well. But on the disarm situation, I chose to compare them to a fighter for two reasons, Fighters have the best BAB and highest STR in the game. Now, I like fighters with a shield, so there is my bias coming out but the disarm would work even better against every other class. Disarm the wand from the wizard. Disarm the holy symbol from the cleric. Disarm the banjo from the bard.

And as for the two handed locked gauntlet improved disarm fighters out there, you TRIP them.

If the monk has improved trip, it is monk STR MOD +4 vs. the MAX(FTR STR mod, FTR DEX mod). The +4 from the feat makes the Monk have the equivalent of a +8 to STR. So the 12@ STR Monk vs. the 18 STR Fighter would succeed 50% of the time. That sucks but it would be easier to trip wizards, clerics, druids, bards, etc.

Eveyone is familiar with the monk spring attack so I won't go into it here except to mention it in this sentence.

Stunning fist is also good against the right kind of foes. The DC is 10 + 1/2 monk level + wis mod. I think a level 10 monk would have a 10 +5 +3 or 18 vs. a Cleric or other high FORT save person of same level +7 +3 (from CON) for a save of +10. So those types lose the save only 35% of the time. Versus a level 10 wizard or rogue, with +3 +3 (from CON) for +6, they would succeed only 45% of the time.

Why am I going into all of this? Because I ramble. But also to point out all these really neat things a monk could do from feats gained only from the class itself that have the following in common: All of these feats (trip, disarm, stuning fist) have a less than 100% chance of success (esp. depending upon your foe) but if successful they put your opponent in a tactically weak position. Where does this come into play? AOOs. That's right, the monk is the king of the Attack of Opportunity. If the fighter provokes an AOO, why not take that opportunity to (attempt to) disarm him, or trip him, or stun him? Quick draw is a counter to the disarm, although it probably puts a less effective weapon in hand, but QD is not taken often (at least not in my bunch). Drawing a new weapon, getting up from prone, fighting while prone, or being stunned are all not good conditions to be in on your next initiative.

 

[Sejs]

Bah, disarming is overrated - I say sunder. Sunder everything. Sword? Sunder it. Shield? Sunder it. Locked Gauntlet? Sunder it. Allies? Sunder 'em. His mom? Sunder her too.

 

[MichaelH]

I have a player in my game that is on a monk craze. His last character was a monk. His current character is a 14th level monk. His new LG character is a monk.

I asked him why he has been playing monks so much. He said it was simple. He has had the most fun playing monks, so that is what he likes to play. He knows that the fighters and barbarians may be able to dish it out and take it better than monks, all things being equal. But for now, he enjoys monks more.

 

[El Ravager]

It's frankly HARD to get the monk to "shine." Moment of glory, and all that. Think of the monk as a linebacker, doing the grunt work. Speedy, high saves, SR, but not... well... not typically doing "heroic" stuff that saves the party. Heals people when everyone else is down via potions -- yes. Resists the necromancer's attacks -- yes. Chases down the very injured enemy mage -- yes. All useful but, well. Some people find that thrilling. Some don't.

This kinda jives with how my gaming group describes the monk.

The monk is like a shovel. When you need one, they are really nice to have around. Otherwise.... meh.

You see, a jackhammer or big ol construction digger would be cool. Or, at the very least, flashy-neato. But the monk is just a shovel.


========
El Rav

 

[Incenjucar]

Then again most intelligent or semi-intelligent opponents likely dismiss the monk as a serious threat on the count he's not armed and is not casting spells. Or why would you attack the gandhi-lookalike instead of the plated fighter with a big-ass sword or the spellslinger?

That can also work to the monks advantage, BTW.

In a world where monks and wizards exist, most sane people are going to try and kill the least-armored -first-.