How is a Monk viable?

[Elder-Basilisk]

You know, I really want to jump into this thread and yell "I've seen darned effective monks" but I keep hearing a lot of nonsense from the monk defenders. So, first things first.

1st level wizard. 28 point buy. If he has both of those up, he's not a threat, because he's only got one spell left. If he doesn't have those up, he's got an AC of 11 at most. QED.

Nonsense.

Human Wiz 1: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10.
AC: 12 without mage armor. With Shield or a scroll of mage armor or a masterwork buckler he puts away with a move action when casting spells, that's AC 13-15. HP: 6-9 (9 w/Toad familiar; 12 with toughness as a feat but that's overkill).

Or Halfling Wiz 1: Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 17, Wis 9, Cha 8
AC: 13 base, 17 with mage armor or shield.

A typical low-level wizard should be assumed to have an AC of at least twelve. Sometimes, you'll luck out and find an AC 8 wizard. More often, it'll be 12-17.

And the Fighter in question has 11-12 hit points. If the enemy fighter hits him, he could be down immediately.

There's a big difference between dropping on AVERAGE DAMAGE from one hit and dropping from a lucky hit. Let's say the first level fighter has a 14 strength and a bastard sword. That's an average of 7.5 damage. Bye bye Mr. 10-con monk.

The typical fighter has 12+ hit points (11 if an elf). It takes max damage to drop him. The monk drops 50% of the time. Big difference.

That's what first level IS. And the monk has a better chance of running past the enemy fighter and getting to the mage, who, if he's smart, has 2-3 sleep spells prepped instead of a low-probability solution like shield/mage armor.

Well, if it's 3.5, the enemy wizard probably has Ray of Enfeeblement and Color Spray or Cause Fear prepped. Maybe Enlarge Person if he's willing to risk full round actions. On the other hand, said first level mage doesn't need to worry about the monk you described too much. His odds of holding you off with his quarterstaff are fairly good.

Fortunately, the monk can move & strike, and then strike & move. That's better than a 50% chance by a fair margin. But considering that the 1d10+4 fighter only has a 60% chance of downing the monk, I guess that's about fair, isn't it? Especially since the mage, in addition to having a 50% chance of being downed, only has a 50% chance of not being stunned as well.

Hmm. Against AC 12 wizard, that's a 50% chance of hitting once, a 25% chance of hitting twice, and a 25% chance of stunning him (50% chance to hit and 50% chance to stun if you hit). With 1d6+1 damage per hit, that's about a 16% chance of doing enough damage to stagger the wizard. Not especially good odds.....

At 10th level, the smart monk has a monk's belt, STR gloves, and a bit o' the magic fist going on, for 2d6+5 at a minimum. And the last 10th level monk I saw was doing 3d6+6, which was pretty comparable to the fighter.

True words about the monk's items. However, unless the campaign is unusually generous with magic items, a 10th level monk who started with a 13 strength and boosted wisdom won't be doing even 2d6+5 points of damage. It'll be more like 2d6+3 at best. That's an average of 10 points.

3d6+6=average 16.5. If that's comparable to the fighter in terms of damage, it's obviously a one-handed fighter and he's not power attacking. 16 starting strength +2 stat boosts from level, + gauntlets of ogre power+weapon specialization+a +2 flaming bastard sword=1d10+9+1d6 (avg 18 points)

For a two-handed weapon wielder power attacking for two, that's 2d6+16+1d6 (avg 26.5 points).

In my observation, effective monks generally get their damage from the quantity rather than the quality of their attacks.

And mobility is a prereq to spring attack, which is going to be taken, coincidentally, at the same time that tumble becomes useful. Nice how that works out, isn't it?

I'm not sure I understand what you're driving at. The most effective monk's I've observed use Roundabout kick (Complete Warrior) and Expert Tactician (Song and Silence) rather than Spring Attack. Tumble is good enough for them.

IME, if the party is high enough level to face barbarian orcs, the monk is dishing out 3d6+6 or more per strike, tripping like a fiend, and stunning the worst offenders among the foes.

I was under the impression that orc barbarians were suitable opponents for foes of any level. It's just a matter of what level the orc barbarians are. I tend to expect first and second level orc barbarians at first level.

Okay, I see the problem, now.

1. Barbarian can't afford the equipment you gave him.

True. You can't take Mobility without Dodge either.

2. That isn't 28 point buy.

Yes it is.

Str 16 (10 points)
Dex 14 (6 points)
Con 16 (10 points)
Int 8 (0 points)
Wis 10 (2 points)
Cha 8 (0 points)

A realistic barbarian focussed on mobility and movement could afford to buy a chain shirt and a heavy wooden shield with a longsword at first level. That's AC 18 (+4 chain shirt, +2 dex, +2 shield). If he takes Dodge and Mobility, that's AC 19, 23 vs. AoOs. However, since he can't take spring attack till 6th level without multiclassing, he'll probably go for weapon focus and dodge. AC 19, Atk +5 (1d8+3).

Since you're building your characters on far more generous terms than the monk (more ability score points, better starting equipment, etc.), then yeah, my monk doesn't measure up.

Really, I don't think your monk design measures up at any level. Your strength and con are too low to be viable in anything but the dancing butterfly spring attack role. And there are better ways to do that than Monk (most of them involve multiclass fighter/barbarians (possibly with rogue levels), power attack,and two handed weapons).

 

[spectre72]

Nah, I don't think that makes a lot of difference, since magical bonuses give both attack and defense.



At 10th level, even in a low magic world, a fighter should hit that really, really easy...

I guess what I am not making clear on this point is that the biggest bonus on a magic item our group currently has is +2 I think, and that is a rare item.

So magical bonses are almost non existant, other than +1 armor or weapons.

So with this factor added in the added bonuses from being a monk give a better AC than almost anyone else in the party since my monk is a DEX/WIS stat combo.

 

[Thanee]

And how is this racking up against the +11 from Dex 12, Full Plate and Heavy Shield?

And even a fighter with no magic items whatsoever is going to hit AC 24 at that level quite often, thanks to high Str, BAB, Greater Weapon Focus, masterwork weapon, plus whatever spells are available from the party spellcasters.

And how does a monk get to AC 24 at 10th level, anyways, without using armor or magic?

Or is that with fighting defensively, using Combat Expertise or anything similar?

EDIT: Wait, you had said something about that already...

...but even now my monk has the highest AC of the group (at level 10). This is due to DEX, WIS, Inertial Armor, and a couple of other misc adjustments and items (24 AC).

So, you are using magic items, psionics and "other misc adjustments" to up your AC, but the fighter is not allowed the same?

Sounds like a rather fair comparison to me.


And yeah, we play the game a bit differently (more close to the suggested wealth levels with magic items), but as I said, I don't think this makes a whole lot of a difference, since magic items give both attack and defense, so if they are removed, both values go down.

However, at 10th level, if you face anything near CR 10, AC 24 is not going to be much of protection for sure.

Bye
Thanee

 

[spectre72]

At 10th level, the smart monk has a monk's belt, STR gloves, and a bit o' the magic fist going on, for 2d6+5 at a minimum. And the last 10th level monk I saw was doing 3d6+6, which was pretty comparable to the fighter.

This type of comment is a flag as to why there is such a division between people on the usefullness of a class.

I am running a monk 8 / Psion 2 in our current campaign and I can tell you that there is no way in H#@@ that the GM in our campaign will give me access to equipment like this, and even if it could be found my character would not have enough money to pay the person to create the item.

So my monk is doing an equivelent amount of damage as the fighter with the +1 Long Sword, and that is OK because in our campaign the two are balanced.

From reading this post I guess that most people play a different type of game than we do, but in our world it is very hard to pull of a Min/Max dream character because the DM does not want that type of distraction in the game.

 

[spectre72]

And how does a monk get to AC 24 at 10th level, anyways, without using armor or magic?

Or is that with fighting defensively, using Combat Expertise or anything similar?


So, you are using magic items, psionics and "other misc adjustments" to up your AC, but the fighter is not allowed the same for his attack roll?

Sounds like a rather fair comparison to me.

Bye
Thanee

The fighters have magical bonuses, but they are not very high (+1 average).

Magical items in the campaign are rare, and sometimes it is difficult to find an item that actually helps the characters in the party.

Also for some reason our players don't run around boosting for combat, especially since the new 3.5 rules which limit the duration of stat boosters.

My monk has a high dex and wis, a ring of protection +1, monk AC adjustment, gnome AC adjustment, and inertial armor.

Part of what I am trying to get across is that a monk works in our game.

Other games with a higher power level (magic items and such) I could see the monk being left in the dust but that is a different scenario than what we play.

I am in no way implying that my monk is a one person killing machine, but she has survived in a number of roles in our campaign and has progressed through 10 levels.

This journey has included stints as front line fighter when we had a party that consisted of almost entirely support characters. Higher AC has made her harder to hit, but there have been many times that a solid hit has taken her to less than 5 HP and she has needed to tumble away and drink a Cure potion before returning to battle.

She has fought dragons, giants, and humanoid armies.

And Thanee, I appriciate your view and I am sure you are right that there have been days when the dice gods have been looking in my favor

 

[two]

This type of comment is a flag as to why there is such a division between people on the usefullness of a class.

I am running a monk 8 / Psion 2 in our current campaign and I can tell you that there is no way in H#@@ that the GM in our campaign will give me access to equipment like this, and even if it could be found my character would not have enough money to pay the person to create the item.

So my monk is doing an equivelent amount of damage as the fighter with the +1 Long Sword, and that is OK because in our campaign the two are balanced.

From reading this post I guess that most people play a different type of game than we do, but in our world it is very hard to pull of a Min/Max dream character because the DM does not want that type of distraction in the game.

Obviously, and I mean to stress obviously, in a world where +1 swords are the norm for a PC 10th level fighter, the monk will shine. If a masterwork sword is de rigeur for 10th level, the monk will shine even more. If everyone is stripped naked, the monk looks like a god. This is painfully obvious.

You were smart in such a low $ world to grab a few psionic levels; with nearly no equipment, spellcasting/psionics becomes even more powerful than it is already.

I might mention that, in your world, a Monk8/Psion2 sounds like a great build -- something a min/maxxer would appreciate! Just be aware that in other worlds, your min/max solution for a low-equipment low $$ world (monk with touches of psion) is a pretty ho-hum solution.

By the way, I do quite pity the Fighter10 in your campaign. With a +1 sword as a "big expensive item", any semi-spellcaster would be able to clean his clock 10 times a day, much less a full caster (the fighters saves are abysmal, after all).

Your personal experience with your monk in this campaign world, by the way, is quite immaterial to the question at hand. The campaign world sounds fun because it seems you enjoy playing in it; however, be aware it is very non-standard for D&D, and judgements made regarding classes from experiences within it are going to be very skewed.

Have fun! Game on! etc.

 

[Thanee]

Part of what I am trying to get across is that a monk works in our game.

That's cool. Just wondering, why... Since I see no reason, why a monk should be a better "tank" than a fighter in the scenario you are describing, other than the fighters just doing a lousy job at their role.

I'd expect a decent tank-style fighter to have an AC higher than 24, even breaking 30 if needed (with nothing but simple +1 stuff and some defensive feats), a higher attack bonus and a higher damage per attack (but lesser number of attacks, naturally). And that with only using pretty normal stuff, no excessive min/maxing or anything like that.

And Thanee, I appriciate your view and I am sure you are right that there have been days when the dice gods have been looking in my favor

It must have, with what you have written above (like holding up alone against a bunch of giants).

Or your DM is fudging dice like there was no tomorrow.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

That's another thing I'm wondering about. Do you have any restrictions on spellcasting classes?

Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers and Wizards totally rule in a campaign where magic items are rare.

Bye
Thanee

 

[spectre72]

However, at 10th level, if you face anything near CR 10, AC 24 is not going to be much of protection for sure.

But remember if a campaign adjusts the wealth\magic level of the campaign down then the GM would need to adjust the CR accordingly.

There have been encounters where I have been smacked around, HARD.

And we did recently have almost a complete TPK where only my monk survived by running away and hiding after the rest of the party was smacked by a dozen giants in an ambush.

 

[spectre72]

That's another thing I'm wondering about. Do you have any restrictions on spellcasting classes?

Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers and Wizards totally rule in a campaign where magic items are rare.

Bye
Thanee

No restrictions, but we have a group that likes to try unique class combinations. Most people have stayed away from wizards due to training time and cost in a world where GP have been very limited, but there are no restrictions on what they can play (other than prestige classes).

So this means that we were without a strong Wizard for quite some time. I guess it is a matter of how people like to play, but a wizard with 8-10 levels would have been a huge boost for us against a number of opponents.