How is a Monk viable?

[spectre72]

A tank is named tank for a reason... that's because he or she (or it) isn't going down easily.

Bye
Thanee

Perhaps our campaign is unusual then because my character has outlasted Many, Many, MANY Tanks

I think one thing that I have mentioned is that our campaign is light on magical items so perhaps that is the difference, but even now my monk has the highest AC of the group (at level 10). This is due to DEX, WIS, Inertial Armor, and a couple of other misc adjustments and items (24 AC).

And If the "Tank" gets hit more than the monk, and the monk gets missed the tank will go down first every time....

Perhaps part of it is good RP on my part, but playing a character that is hard to hit is good for me.

Add wholeness of body and things get even more fun.

In recent encounters she has stood in the front lines untouched while she hits with her unarmed attacks and at the end of the combat she is still at almost full HP while the fighters are down and bleeding.

My monk has held bull rushes from giants, grappled with giants, and held the front line more times than I can count while the "Tanks" bled to death on the ground (including our dwarven fighter named "Tank").

In fact she is famous in our campaign world for holding the door of a gate house from about 8 giants (all of the other fighters were down and bleeding)during an expedition to raise the gate and reclaim the dwarven citadel that was being held by orc and giant invaders.

The GM could not believe that I stood in the door and stopped the rush of giants while my companions were getting healed and removed from the area. But stand there I did and took everything that he could dish out including grapples, bull rushes, thrown boulders, and fireballs from the flying cloud giant

Add good mobility and the ability to tumble through oponents and smack around spellcasters and I get a smile while the tank tries to move 20 feet of the 40+ feet I just moved.

So I understand your opinion, but in our game a monk has done quite well.

I am also not of the belief that the "Tank" fighter is the class for me

 

[Pielorinho]

When we played through RttToEE with 32-point-buy characters, I think the rogue/monk was the only PC never to die. When the rest of the party started going down under overwhelming numbers, he was able to escape to form a rescue/raise dead party. When the bad guys captured us and were going to sacrifice us to their dark masters, he kept making insanely high escape artist checks to get free.

Our primary party comprised a druid, a sorcerer, and him, with other characters appearing and disappearing throughout the course of the campaign; as such, he was our primary fighter. Sure, he didn't dish out quite as much damage as a fighter would--but he had stunning blows to spare, and would usually make the first attack in a flurry be a stunning attempt. When it succeeded, he'd get multiple sneak attacks to follow it up with.

Generally he got buffed with mage armor and barkskin, rarely anything else. The mage armor came from wand he'd purchased for the sorcerer, thereby getting a cheap +4 AC that a fighter couldn't benefit from. His treasure consisted primarily of dex and str boosting items. His AC rarely dropped below 30.

It seemed pretty fantastically effective to me .

Daniel

 

[two]

Human Monk, point buy 28
STR 13, DEX 14, CON 10, INT 12, WIS 15, CHA 7
1st level feats: Dodge, Mobility
1st level monk: Unarmed Strike, Stunning Blow
AC 14, 18 v movement AOOs, +1 v one opponent
Attack +1 or -1/-1

Most fighters will have an attack of +5 and an AC of 14-16. Against a fighter standing between the monk and an enemy wizard, the monk has a good chance of moving past the fighter, around behind the wizard, and then cacking the wizard with one punch (1d6+1 v 4-5 hp). Since a wizard's AC on point buy isn't going to be better than an 11 at best, the monk can afford to attack defensively, too, to help survive the fighter's charge back when he realizes what the monk has done.

As the monk goes up in level, this only gets better. Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, and don't forget that a monk gets AC benefits from DEX items and WIS items. And as his movement rate increases, he may be able to move past the fighter, stun the wizard, and move again... out of charge reach. Rinse, wash, repeat.

There's other stuff monks can do, of course. A half-orc grappler monk is pretty ace, for example. But the above is the major thing we expect a monk to do for us (in our campaign) at low level.

Low level monks are teh bomb.

Ow. Am I the only one that winces at such a monk? Sounds dreadful.

First of all, the Monk in question has 8 hit points. If the enemy fighter hits him, he could be down immediately. Furthermore, I don't see why the enemy mage has an AC of 11 at most. Any mage within combat range usually has shield and/or mage armor up, making the monk miss far more than he hits. And 1d6+1 damage, even assuming the monk hits, has only 50% chance of downing a first level wizard with a con=12.

Due to the monk's low strength, and burning up feats on stuff that's marginally useful (mobility is replaced by tumble by level 3 or so, spring attack allows the monk to do little damage safely), this monk (with your build) has a good chance of hitting 10th level and dishing out, maybe 1d10+3 damage. With not very good chances to hit, given flurry penalties.

I guess your build is precisely the reason why a lot of people don't like monks. Unless they are dedicated high strength grappler types, they don't usually do much damage, have relatively low AC and HP's, and simply run around helping out by flanking or attacking enemy spellcasters -- when they are around.

Vs. a typical and more common scenarios of barbarian orcs, or a few melee monsters, the monk is stuck trading full attacks (and getting destroyed) or spring attacking (in your build) and not being effective at all.

When evey battle has an enemy spell caster, yeah, a Monk can the da bomb. Otherwise, well, frankly, everything the monk can do (mobility, high AC, high movement at level 1) a fighter-type can do just as well, plus actually hit hard and strong. An unraging barbarian with 40' base move, mobility, a shield, and a decent dex does the trick. Plus has more hit points, and bab, and a good 1 handed weapon... let's see:

28 points buy:

Human Barbarian1

Ch: 8
Wis: 10
Int: 8
St: 16
Con: 16
Dex: 14

AC = Breastplate + dex + large shield = 19, or 23 with mobility. One feat to spare. Dodge? Overkill.

Give him a masterwork weapon, and he's +5 to hit, for 1d8 + 3 damage.
Hit points = 15.

So, the Barbarian has more hit points, a better AC (and an AC that's easier to increase via magic armor/shield), is FASTER than the monk, and hits much more often and harder. Plus can rage once in position for owie.

If you want to do these sorts of tactics, particularly at low levels, the monk is a horrible choice. Any pure fighter is a much better option.

 

[Thanee]

Perhaps our campaign is unusual then because my character has outlasted Many, Many, MANY Tanks

No, I guess it's just that your character was the Tank there.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Most fighters will have an attack of +5 and an AC of 14-16.

I think 16-18 (Dex 10-14) is more likely, unless you have a two-handed fighter, but those tend to be barbarians at the low levels.

Tho, I'd put attack at +4 only, not everyone is going to afford an 18 Str, I suppose.

Since a wizard's AC on point buy isn't going to be better than an 11 at best, ...

Could be 17 (21 with shield) pretty easily with a decent Dex (14 base, elf) and mage armor.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I think one thing that I have mentioned is that our campaign is light on magical items so perhaps that is the difference, ...

Nah, I don't think that makes a lot of difference, since magical bonuses give both attack and defense.

...but even now my monk has the highest AC of the group (at level 10). This is due to DEX, WIS, Inertial Armor, and a couple of other misc adjustments and items (24 AC).

At 10th level, even in a low magic world, a fighter should hit that really, really easy...

In recent encounters she has stood in the front lines untouched while she hits with her unarmed attacks and at the end of the combat she is still at almost full HP while the fighters are down and bleeding.

Maybe your fighters just need some lessons in tactics...

My monk has held bull rushes from giants, grappled with giants, and held the front line more times than I can count while the "Tanks" bled to death on the ground (including our dwarven fighter named "Tank").

Or maybe you are just plain lucky...

In fact she is famous in our campaign world for holding the door of a gate house from about 8 giants (all of the other fighters were down and bleeding)

REALLY, REALLY lucky...

So I understand your opinion, but in our game a monk has done quite well.

Yeah, it's one thing, that is also highly campaign-specific, I think.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Chimera]

burning up feats on stuff that's marginally useful (mobility is replaced by tumble by level 3 or so

A bad assumption. Tumbling is not automatic, it's a roll that you can fail. Six skill points at 3rd level +2 dex is only +8 on a 15 check, assuming you're only trying to move past _one_ opponent and not through him.

Besides, as I've stated in other threads, there's a time when it's useful to draw those AoO's so that others won't take them. In a past game, my High Dex/High AC/Improved Initiative Fighter (with Dodge and Mobility) used to do just this, moving through the enemy, deliberately drawing all sorts of AoOs. Then when they were done, the Rogue and Monk/whatevers (I think we had 5 multiclassed monks in the party of 9) could move through the enemy with impunity, forgoing tumble checks (they had spent their skill points on other things).

 

[Thanee]

Also don't forget, that Tumble now has an actual movement cost. Sometimes that can be the 5 ft. you would need to get into the position you want.

But in general I agree, that Dodge/Mobility are just wasted feats, unless you want to get Spring Attack, or whatever else lies down that path.

Bye
Thanee

 

[TheGemini]

I think it comes down to saves. *This* is where the monks shines. It's nothing to be ashamed of, either. Everyone brags about tanks until the tank is dominated and running through hog waste on a make believe horse while singin' "Ol' McDonald." (It's not a pretty sight)

I guess if I had my way I'd double all the Wisdom bonuses for the monk (including the wisdom bonus to AC) and call it good. But it does seem that something is lacking in the current state of affairs. Not necessarily combat wise, but somehow.

 

[Endur]

The 3.5 Monk is a major improvement over 3.0.

example 28 point buy Monks

14's for Dexterity and Wisdom: Must
12 or 14 for Strength, Intelligence, Constitution: Highly Recommended
Charisma for dump stat
level up's go to wisdom (ac, stunning fist DC)
Human Monks
example #1
Str 12, Dex 14, Wis 14, Con 14, Int 14, Chr 8
example #2
Str 14, Dex 14, Wis 14, Con 12, Int 14, Chr 8
example #3
Str 14, Dex 14, Wis 14, Con 14, Int 12, Chr 8
etc.

Feats: Stunning Fist, Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows, Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike, and Improved Critical Unarmed Strike are must have feats.

Improved Disarm is extremely useful against armed opponents. Take the magic sword away from the fighter and kick him to death.

Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack are a flashy feat sequence, but I agree with those who say that it is not a super-powerful feat sequence.

Example Feat progression if only using PHB:
1st human: Dodge
1st level: Improved Grapple
1st Monk: Stunning Fist
2nd Monk: Deflect Arrows
3rd level Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike
6th level Mobility
6th Monk: Improved Disarm
9th level Spring Attack
12th level Improved Critical Unarmed Strike
15th level Lightning Reflexes
18th level Iron Will or Improved Initiative or Power Attack

I agree with those who say that if you want raw damage, go with a barbarian. If you want a ninja, go with the monk.