How is a vampire possibly worth +8 LA?

[Rystil Arden]

That's not nonsensical. You haven't begun to plum the intriguing nonsensical potential of the rule until you consider what happens when a 1st level character picks up a magic sword... let's say a Lawful character and a +1 Anarchic Longsword.

Takes a negative level, dies, and rises the next night as a wight...

-Hyp.

Or a 1st-level evil character risen as a Wight by the magic of a Holy sword. No, I thought of that, actually. That's why I said the rule itself was nonsensical, not just that specific application.

 

[Grog]

Heh, well at the point, the vampire PC shrugs about the collateral damage, and the party, who have all bought magic silver weapons and other vampire-hunting paraphenalia ahead of time (or, since this is level 13 or above anyway and they probably have good magic, they might have even put some kind of triggerable kill rune on the bodies before they rose as spawn), wait for the BBEG to bite it and then offer their services to the high council as vampire-slayers and become the heroes of the town.

In a social and political campaign, the goal is generally not to kill the BBEG. It's to outmanuver him politically and foil his plots.

And I seriously doubt that the party would become the heroes of the town when it was one of their members who created the undead plague that killed half the inhabitants in the first place....

 

[Rystil Arden]

In a social and political campaign, the goal is generally not to kill the BBEG. It's to outmanuver him politically and foil his plots.

And I seriously doubt that the party would become the heroes of the town when it was one of their members who created the undead plague that killed half the inhabitants in the first place....

Well you don't tell them that. The party's social manoeuvring will be using Bluff and Diplomacy to put the right spin on things and make sure nobody determines who was responsible

 

[Artoomis]

That's not nonsensical. You haven't begun to plum the intriguing nonsensical potential of the rule until you consider what happens when a 1st level character picks up a magic sword... let's say a Lawful character and a +1 Anarchic Longsword.

Takes a negative level, dies, and rises the next night as a wight...

-Hyp.

Actually, you could read the rule as applying to ONLY when the level drains are caused by an undead creature.

Simply read these two sentences:

Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.

Like this (presto-chango):

"If the undead creature that kills you does NOT cause you to rise the next night as one of it's kind, then you rise the next night as a wight."

Since the section of the rules this is in is referring to undead draining levels, so the re-phrasing is a legitimate way to read this and the awful problem is solved!!

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, you could read the rule as applying to ONLY when the level drains are caused by an undead creature.

A horrible creature, especially undead. But not limited thereto.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

A horrible creature, especially undead. But not limited thereto.

-Hyp.

Well, I suppose, perhaps. But, in any case, not by Enervation or picking up Holy Swords, et. al.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, I suppose, perhaps. But, in any case, not by Enervation or picking up Holy Swords, et. al.

You don't think a sorcerer enervating someone to death or a construct slaughtering innocent 1st level evil commoners to be a horrible creature?

-Hyp.

 

[Rystil Arden]

You don't think a sorcerer enervating someone to death or a construct slaughtering innocent 1st level evil commoners to be a horrible creature?

-Hyp.

That gives me an idea for a funny adventure, where Wizards throughout the land are murdered by a Sorcerer with Enervation, only to arise at midnight and realise to their horror that they have become the most horrible thing imaginable...a Sorcerer! (or a holy sword that turns evil people into holy swords)

 

[monboesen]

So the high LA is for troublesome players who want to ruin campaigns? Why not give it a decent LA so normal players can run them as PCs, and then let the DM do whatever he feels like if someone tries to screw the campaign up as a vampire?

No. High LA are reserved for creatures that are either extraordinarily powerful and needs them to prevent everyone from wanting to play them. Or for creatures having special powers that can completely up a game if taken advantage of to the fullest (which at least some players are able to do).

The vampire is of the second kind.

Both types needs special consideration before you allow them in the campaign. I'm sorry but it is not as simple as just handing them the correct LA, some abilities are just not meant to be in the players hands. Not because it is neccesarily unfair, but because it rapidly can turn the game unfun.

And I seriously doubt that the party would become the heroes of the town when it was one of their members who created the undead plague that killed half the inhabitants in the first place....

Since vampires by nature are evil (alignment entry: Always evil) ravenous undeads that lives of human blood and life energy I tend to think that the vampire really really doesn't care.


"But but but, I wanted to play the single good vampire struggling to preserve his humanity and sanity"

Good for you. But then you are already wanting to change the vampire template and might as well change whatever you and your DM finds neccesary and agree on a reasonable ECL for the new modified template.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I actually never knew that--wow, that makes the Create Greater Undead spell and Create Undead spells both a horrible waste. That rule is nonsensical, so IMC, I'm definitely not going to use that clause, but of course it is a house rule.

Well, it isn't all that great, since you can't control them. I suppose you could "herd" them, though, which could cause amazingly horrible devistation to... a contenent. But, then you'd be in trouble unless you could get away really far yourself.

Since vampires by nature are evil (alignment entry: Always evil) ravenous undeads that lives of human blood and life energy I tend to think that the vampire really really doesn't care.

Always doesn't always mean always.

Wooo! Always in a sentence three times.