How is death (and raising the dead) handled in D&D novels?

Seems (in the FR novels anyway), that its the province of the gods. Didn't Kelemvor (the new god of the dead) pull a soul from a lava flow, ask why said soul took a risk his god(dess) would have forbade, and then throw the soul back?
 

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Cthulhudrew said:
Either the mechanics are blatantly obvious (I recall a recent poster in one of the Eberron novel threads mentioning he could almost hear the dice rolling during action sequences)...

I think one of the absolute worst examples I can recall was in the first Doom novelisation.

The main character in the book finds and uses the glowing-blue-face invincibility powerup.

He was also very adept at descriptively depicting the mechanical aspects of the game in his novels...

Of course, he broke a few rules himself. Curley, for example, was a multiclassed druid/ranger (not a legal combo when the novel was written)...

-Hyp.
 
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Agreed that resurrection/raise dead cannot be handwaved away; agreed too (at least I hope) that it ought not to be common.

In the end, I think Faraer's point is well taken. Notwithstanding the availability of the magic (and I think that is overstated by many people, even for the high-magic setting of FR), its frequent use is curtailed by cultural, social, and even individual psychological norms associated with death and the afterlife. Among other things, it is an accepted truth in FR that at death the soul moves on to its eternal reward (after a hopefully brief stop in Kelemvor's realm). Quite apart from the fact that such a soul might be unwilling to return (on the assumption that the eternal reward is a pleasing experience), the living might easily think it blasphemous/cruel/bad form/or at least rude to even offer the invitation. I can imagin many priests wrestling with a crisis of conscience about casting such a spell.

I think we tend to look at the phenomenon of resurrection through our lens as players -- it's a fifth/seventh/ninth level spell, lots of clerics around can cast that, it only costs x gps, so why isn't everyone getting raised/ressed all the time? But that misses the point to some degree. That type of analysis focuses perhaps too heaviliy on the crunch of the rules set, when (at least in this case) it may be the fluff (the cultural, societal, and psychological) that actually serves as the brake on the frequent use of certain types of spells.

This discussion is interesting to me because this issue plays a role in my next novel.

Paul
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
Instead, you build tension from other sources. From mutilation of the body, from failure of a mission, from the "commoner tragedy," etc.

Mutilation of the body can be fixed. If you can come back from the dead within a minute, you can resume your mission. If the mission was to rescue hostages and they were killed, you can have them raised (or, if they dig being dead and don't want to come back, then maybe it's not so bad to let good people die--hell, feel free to kill them yourself).

There is lofty, high-handed thematic tension that you're talking about, but there is also the very palpable tension of a character being one false move away from death. Apparently, you're arguing that the lofty, high-handed thematic tension should completely supplant the tension provided by a cool action scene or a tense battle to the death. Guess that's your personal taste, but it tastes pretty watered-down to me.

You use resurrection to build tension. You have villains and heroes who are unaffraid of death, who know they'll just be back to fight again. You don't write around resurrection just because it forces certain hands. You embrace it. Confront it. Use it.

Or dump it altogether because the lack of irrevocable personal consequences renders those characters' adventures inane and pointless. We don't need more novels about angst-ridden immortals, thanks. :cool:

PaulKemp said:
Agreed that resurrection/raise dead cannot be handwaved away; agreed too (at least I hope) that it ought not to be common.

Right, but from most accounts, it seems the novels do hand-wave it away.

In the end, I think Faraer's point is well taken. Notwithstanding the availability of the magic (and I think that is overstated by many people, even for the high-magic setting of FR), its frequent use is curtailed by cultural, social, and even individual psychological norms associated with death and the afterlife.

That's all good and well, but generally we're not talking some schlub breaking his neck getting out of the bathtub and his wife having to observe a lot of red tape in getting him rezzed. We're talking about heroes--guys who traditionally are not mired down by bureaucracy--getting killed in a horrible way, likely failing some important task. Maybe even a quest.

Among other things, it is an accepted truth in FR that at death the soul moves on to its eternal reward (after a hopefully brief stop in Kelemvor's realm). Quite apart from the fact that such a soul might be unwilling to return (on the assumption that the eternal reward is a pleasing experience), the living might easily think it blasphemous/cruel/bad form/or at least rude to even offer the invitation.

Again, we're not talking about Bob the Barber waking up to find he's got his 600 virgins and will never have sweep any more hair off the floor ever again, or put the seat down for his annoying wife. Heroes are typically doers of important things. Getting killed is a big hassle. "No no, I'm sure the rest of you can get that ring to the volcano. I'm enjoying the scenery here."

I think we tend to look at the phenomenon of resurrection through our lens as players -- it's a fifth/seventh/ninth level spell, lots of clerics around can cast that, it only costs x gps, so why isn't everyone getting raised/ressed all the time? But that misses the point to some degree. That type of analysis focuses perhaps too heaviliy on the crunch of the rules set, when (at least in this case) it may be the fluff (the cultural, societal, and psychological) that actually serves as the brake on the frequent use of certain types of spells.

The focus is on what extraordinary characters with a great deal of resourcefulness and wherewithal can accomplish. From that standpoint, I'd say culture, society, psychology, and other mundane factors are getting the exact amount of attention they merit, which is to say none.
 
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Felon said:
The focus is on what extraordinary characters with a great deal of resourcefulness and wherewithal can accomplish. From that standpoint, I'd say culture, society, psychology, and other mundane factors are getting the exact amount of attention they merit, which is to say none.

We'll have to disagree, then. In my mind, being extraordinary doesn't remove a character from the culture/society, it enmeshes them in. Being well-known in a culture or society sometimes means being bound by an ideal of its norms, norms that your ordinary Joe may not have to abide by simply because of his anonymity.

Just different takes on it, I suppose.
 

Mutilation of the body can be fixed. If you can come back from the dead within a minute, you can resume your mission. If the mission was to rescue hostages and they were killed, you can have them raised (or, if they dig being dead and don't want to come back, then maybe it's not so bad to let good people die--hell, feel free to kill them yourself).

There are many logistics involved in it that are also part of the rules, though. Ressurrection isn't a panacea, it's one tool among many. The first and most minor of these is that the returning character will be weakened. In a lot of ways, returning a commoner to life with an 8 Con, condemning them to a slow death from disease and making sure they can't survive a harsh winter, is more cruel than just allowing the soul to die and letting his healthy kids take over. Secondly, and more important for villains, there are several quite mundane ways of death that resurrection cannot thwart. Most necromancy will destroy the soul, either with a death effect or by turning them into undead. Rarer effects will kill them with old age, rendering their body incapable of getting a soul again. You also need the body itself, and there are hundreds of thousands of different ways to end that. You also need 5,000 gp, which is beyond the wealth of any NPC of less than 6th level, or any PC of less than 4th. It is generally a convention in campaign design that NPC's of greater than first, second, or third level are HIGHLY exceptional. This is more true in Eberron than it is in FR, in practice, but the powerful critters in FR are probably better realized as PC's than NPC's. And many books tend to be written about lower-level heroes anyway (definately sub-18th-level).

So in the spell itself and the casting of it, there are many ways to still have tension emerge from someone's demise. A dip in lava. Feeding the prey to a monster. A fall off a cliff. Necromancy. Killing poor people. Stealing a trophy from the body (head-taking becomes an effective measure to prevent resurrection). And any smart villain is going to know the world works this way, and prepare for the eventuality of the occasional resurrection. In fact, he may even work it into his own plan by corrupting or replacing the clerics in town with his own agents.

And intelligent villains who know the way the world works will use those to their advantage. A hostage isn't really a hostage if they can just be raised -- they're a hostage if they are one switch away from an acid bath, to be fed to some great beast, or turned into an undead servant. You can continue your mission in a minute only if the villain doesn't actually threaten you (which requires intelligence and creativity beyond "stick the sharp end into the soft squishy thing"). You can resurrect hostages only if the villain is collossally dumb about takig hostages (again, requiring intelligence and creativity), and if the hero is for some reason fantastically wealthy (which, admittedly, many high-level characters are).

People have been using these in their games for years, now. Why do the novels have to work around it? The only answer I can think of is that the authors don't want to deal with the challenge of writing in the game world. They want to tell their pet story, and rules of the setting be damned! Instead of using their creativity to deal with the problem of resurrection as any intelligent villain in that setting would deal with that problem, they fold over and ignore it. And for my tastes, that's just BAD writing, at least from a game-novel perspective.

There is lofty, high-handed thematic tension that you're talking about, but there is also the very palpable tension of a character being one false move away from death. Apparently, you're arguing that the lofty, high-handed thematic tension should completely supplant the tension provided by a cool action scene or a tense battle to the death. Guess that's your personal taste, but it tastes pretty watered-down to me.

Just because resurrection is a factor doesn't mean that the character isn't one false move away from death. It just means the villains have to be written smarter than "poke it 'till it stops moving." At the most orcish-intelligence level, it's "poke it 'till it stops moving, and if it looks fancy, cut off it's head and take it back with you. Also, make sure that the most powerful preist in the world doesn't have a thing for it." This adds flavor and dimension to the world, heightens verisimilitude, and embraces the game that the setting is supposedly set within the rules of. It makes the heroes have to thwart the plans of people in a fantasy world. ANY book can be written about one-false-move-away-from-death. They are. Every day. Only in Fantasy can you even ponder the nature of "one-false-move-away-from-undeath," or the like. And more specifically, only in a fantasy game would the idea of fairly common resurrection even enter into it.

Furthermore, characters don't need to be one step away from death to be one step away from destruction. Death is just one kind of destruction, and, IMHO, an over-used dramatic schmaltz to wring tension from a situation. Death in the usual literary sense is final, irrevocable, and unsympathetic. This is why it's a useful shorthand for the destruction you want to scare the main character with. Death is death, but TRAGEDY is drama. The fact that writing a novelisation for an RPG limits the ways in which you can use death as a shortcut is one of the things that makes it an RPG book, a fantasy book, and no other kind of book.

Milton didn't need death to make drama in the garden of Eden. Dante didn't need death to introduce tension to his spirit-quest. Homer told you what was going to hapen before it ever happened, so death was always an expected consequence when it happened (Achilles), or there was no fear of it (Odysseus). Hercules didn't fear demise in his 12 labors. These are epic and legendary adventures, and any hero that can bring people back from the dead, call fire from his fingertips, slay three men in six seconds, enchant swords, or hide from the gaze of celestials and pick the locks of the world bank is automatically in their league. Largely, D&D novels are like D&D games: stories about the exceptional and grand individuals that are surrounded by seas of the weak and innocent (e.g.: the audience). The ability to control life and death is one aspect of this magnificent power, and as such it should not be dismissed and hand-waved, but embraced and confronted. Everyone knew Odysseus was immune to death and that he'd get home eventually. The story isn't about his potential failure. It's about the adventure.
 

Hypersmurf said:
Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos novels are set in a high-magic environment. People die and get brought back all the time.

If the brain is damaged, it can make revivification impossible. Beyond a certain length of time, the spirit can't be called back. There are spells that can prevent raising, and if your soul gets eaten, that's it. There's also the suggestion that a really badly-damaged body (even if the brain is intact) is harder to revivify.

But it's a major aspect of the setting. If you hire an assassin, it costs more to have him make sure the victim can't be raised. It's mentioned that duels are fought to the death every day at Castle Black, with no rules other than "No cuts to the head, and revivification for the loser".

In a lot of ways, that element makes it more D&Dish than the FR novels :)

-Hyp.

The oddest thing Hyp. I was reading this thread, and at the exact moment before I read this response, I was thinking of Taltos as the author to be for this discussion. Here's a novel where raise dead IS and is used. Here's a novel with a defined afterlife, and defined ways to accessing it, including (but but exclusively) 'raise dead'.
 

Zappo said:
Mostly A and B, and C on top of that. It isn't quite satisfactory, I know.
Yeah, I concur. Mostly A and B, especially.

However, for the last little while in FR, at least (especially thanks to the descriptions in the F&A series), it's been:
The person being resurrected gets to choose if he wants to come back.
... and they don't.
 

PaulKemp said:
...Among other things, it is an accepted truth in FR that at death the soul moves on to its eternal reward (after a hopefully brief stop in Kelemvor's realm). Quite apart from the fact that such a soul might be unwilling to return (on the assumption that the eternal reward is a pleasing experience), the living might easily think it blasphemous/cruel/bad form/or at least rude to even offer the invitation. I can imagin many priests wrestling with a crisis of conscience about casting such a spell...

Along these lines, witness the difficulties Buffy had during season 7 when her friends cast a "Raise Dead" spell on her. Very good depiction of the sort of struggle that such an event might cause.

Also, along those lines, you might want to consider the other effects- not just societal/personal, but magical/karmic. Just because the spell is available, and granted by the gods, doesn't mean that it might not come with its own consequences. There could be drastic repercussions associated with its usage (or even just minor ones) that the gods are willing to break/allow its usage in certain circumstances, but not all the time.
 

jonesy said:
From Dragonlance:

- Verminaard and Rashas. Both seen dead. Both seen alive later. Editorial mistake or resurrection (though there is the little matter of Sevil Draanim Rev in the modules). :eek:

Its been a long while but I don't remember that. When does Verminaard show up again?
 

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