How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[JoeGKushner]

Not within the context of the fiction. What guys like Bats do is within the capabilities of anyone willing to commit to 15 years of training all day in a comic book martial arts style.

And if that person has also been artificially enhanced by DC's version of a super-soldier serum to be ACTUALLY superhuman, Bats loses. We saw that when Deathstroke took him down (way, way back in Deathstroke's own series)...twice.

BTW, he's also proven himself to be a rival to Bats in planning. Hired to take down the Teen Titans in something like TT#2, and TT was into its 40s before the plan was realized...

And Batman has taken Deathstroke down as well druing the tail end of Infinite Crisis. Much like the Shiva fight, plot protection comes through.
Deathstroke beating Batman in his own book isn't that remarkable.

Now when Bane beat Batman and broke his back through a massive series of events, that was pretty much a set up only for the guy with the flaming swords to become Batman. It was still a good story.


It's all about plot protection and niche protection. Anyone remember Promethus when first introduced before becoming a bitch? Another top of the line one there.

It's one of the reasons why talking about Supers is entertaining because so many issues have been put out that most people can at least point to a few things in their favor or to prove that point.

Doesn't make them right, just right for that example. And just for right now like Tony Start being human when he's got that big ole generator in his chest that emits nanobots to cover him in new armor.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And Batman has taken Deathstroke down as well druing the tail end of Infinite Crisis

Alas, that one is after my time.

So it's Deathstroke 2-1 over Bats?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

BTW, [Deathstroke]'s also proven himself to be a rival to Bats in planning. Hired to take down the Teen Titans in something like TT#2, and TT was into its 40s before the plan was realized...

And which was the only Teen Titan to escape, as Slade himself wryly observed? "The one without powers." Robin.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

And just for right now like Tony Start being human when he's got that big ole generator in his chest that emits nanobots to cover him in new armor.

The chest-tech isn't the only reason Stark is no longer human. The armor now lives in his bones as memory metal.

 

[LostSoul]

"Normal Humans" aren't fantasy heroes.

The two concepts are mutually exclusive.

I disagree. The hero of Poltergeist was a normal human. That was a fantasy movie, she was a regular woman, and still a hero.

 

[Hussar]

Going back to Conan for a second, I'll admit that the "son of Atlantis" thing comes up in the De Camp versions, so, it might have been added later.

However, this is a character that is beaten senseless, crucified, left to hang for a day or so, the cross is cut down and he slams to the ground without any cushioning, after the nails are pulled from his hands, he pulls the nails from his feet BY HIMSELF, stands up without help, gets on a horse and then rides for several hours.

This is considered a normal guy?

See, I look at Batman and I see a character that is just head and shoulders above everybody else. Sure, there are other super heroes that might be on par, but, think about that for a second. Batman is on par with SUPER HEROES. Not normal Joes. No normal human is even close to equal to Batman/Bruce Wayne.

Sure, Robin/Nightwing might be somewhere in the ballpark, but, since when is he a Normal Joe?

Are we saying that unless you've been bitten by a radioactive platypus you are a normal human, no matter what? That just because you are strong, smarter, and in every quatifiable way better than a normal person, you're still just a normal guy because you can't shoot lazer beams from your eyes?

Really?

I would say that Batman is the paragon of humanity. He's the ultimate idealized character, and, as such, he's no long "normal human".

Same as pretty much any other pulp character. Doc Savage is a pretty good example here.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I disagree. The hero of Poltergeist was a normal human. That was a fantasy movie, she was a regular woman, and still a hero.

The hero of Poltergeist was the hero of a horror story, not the hero of a fantasy story. Though there is often some overlap, generally, horror heroes will be normal people who triumph over the supernatural because of some combination of luck and determination and a weakness of the villain, not because of their inherent awesomeness. This is the genre dividing line between fantasy and horror, broadly speaking. In fantasy, the protagonists are the most awesome. In horror, the villains get to be the most awesome.

Not within the context of the fiction. What guys like Bats do is within the capabilities of anyone willing to commit to 15 years of training all day in a comic book martial arts style.

Fine, but why can't a D&D fighter do things that Batman can do? Why is a D&D warrior stuck in the land of Michael Jordan and Olympic athletes?

Batman is different than people like Michael Jordan and Stephen Hawking and Bruce Lee, even if, in the fiction, it's just because he chose a different job than these "normal people."

A D&D fighter should be able to do the incredible things that Batman can do. These things are not, when compared with the Real World, any different than the incredible things Achilles and Hercules and Gilgamesh and Musashi and Lancelot and Samson do.

In the context of D&D (a fantasy stewpot), even if a warrior is some normal dude, he's not just a good athlete or a clever fighter. He's beyond that.

Why can't they fight like Batman fights?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Fine, but why can't a D&D fighter do things that Batman can do?

As far as I can tell, they do.

They can't do what Superman can do, but they can do what Batman can do. They can't fly or use telekinesis or spontaneously generate electricity. But they can fight awesomely.

Which is, of course, the point.

A D&D fighter should be able to do the incredible things that Batman can do.

Depending on what specific feats you have in mind, a D&D fighter can do these things.

In the context of D&D (a fantasy stewpot), even if a warrior is some normal dude, he's not just a good athlete or a clever fighter. He's beyond that.

Of course he is. He's an briliiant fighter.

Why can't they fight like Batman fights?

They can.

Of course, when they borrow abilities from their friends -- as Batman borrows tech quite a bit -- people will bitch about how "everything the fighter can do is because the wizard helped him."

 

[JohnRTroy]

Why does it have to be "balanced" in fiction?

It's fiction. It doesn't have the same rules as gaming. There is no such thing as "Balanced characters" in fiction.

Novels and Movies/TV are a different medium. Games are games. They don't HAVE to be balanced. You don't roll dice or have levels in real life.

Does that mean logic and world building shouldn't exist in a novel? No. But it does mean that writers shouldn't think of their protagonists as characters in a video game with relative levels of power. Heck, even editors of major publishers have suggested people not write novels like it's a D&D campaign.

I think breaking down things into statistics and trying to quantify that stuff will actually hurt fiction. We actually need to stop trying to write stuff in that manner.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Going back to Conan for a second, I'll admit that the "son of Atlantis" thing comes up in the De Camp versions, so, it might have been added later.

However, this is a character that is beaten senseless, crucified, left to hang for a day or so, the cross is cut down and he slams to the ground without any cushioning, after the nails are pulled from his hands, he pulls the nails from his feet BY HIMSELF, stands up without help, gets on a horse and then rides for several hours.


This is considered a normal guy?

As normal as many an action hero.

Just saw one two nights ago that was variation on the 1954 book, I Am Legend- the potagonist was shot with a high-caliber weapon in both legs and either one or both shoulders and left for dead. Instead of bleeding out and/or being eaten by zombies, he managed to (evenually) get up, stagger down the street, break into a car, hot-wire it, drive the car- which MAY have been a stick (I don't recall)- to track down the man who shot him. He then gets into a martial arts fight with his shooter. Now, he does need a little help to win the fight, but he IS doing spin-kicks on legs that have been ventillated by a .45.

Then he drives the damsel in distress and himself out of the city- which is going to be destroyed by bombs...in a Corvette.

All within the hours before he recieves any real medical treatment for his wounds. He's a badass, yes, but he's just a human with training. No super powers. No soldier serum. No alien blood.

See, I look at Batman and I see a character that is just head and shoulders above everybody else. Sure, there are other super heroes that might be on par, but, think about that for a second. Batman is on par with SUPER HEROES. Not normal Joes. No normal human is even close to equal to Batman/Bruce Wayne.

Sure, Robin/Nightwing might be somewhere in the ballpark, but, since when is he a Normal Joe?

Nightwing- Dick Grayson- was an ordinary human being from birth. He happened to be an acrobat. After his parents were murdered, he went through Bats' training program.

No mutant blood, no magical rituals, no alien nanotech. Just comic book martial arts.

Ergo, normal human.

Are we saying that unless you've been bitten by a radioactive platypus you are a normal human, no matter what? That just because you are strong, smarter, and in every quatifiable way better than a normal person, you're still just a normal guy because you can't shoot lazer beams from your eyes?

Really?

Yes.

Because, as I've said, any human who succeeded at going through the same training- and that is all it is, training- would get comparable results. We know this because other characters who have gone through that kind of training have had comparable results. And there is a subset of those who have gone beyond and actually gained REAL superpowers- Deathstroke, Paul Kirk, etc.,- who are/were even more badass.

I would say that Batman is the paragon of humanity. He's the ultimate idealized character, and, as such, he's no long "normal human".

I agree with you up to the word "character." A "paragon of humanity" can only be so if he is still actually human.

Same as pretty much any other pulp character. Doc Savage is a pretty good example here.

That just makes pulp characters into a Mary Sues. If the only things he's got for ingredients to are the same mentors and such- IOW, training- as anyone else might theoretically have to make him über, then all he is is human.

The Phantom, Doc Savage- they're just highly trained humans, nothing else.

Fine, but why can't a D&D fighter do things that Batman can do?

Short answer: they can. Train in martial arts. Train the various stealth skills. Train in Knowledge skills. Use no lethal weapons. Use gear, and lots of it- and the better the gear, the better you'll do.

What you'll find is that the system isn't built to handle the "genius" warrior, but all the other stuff is available.

You'll also find that, just like the real Batman, you can only be so prepared. While you may have a plan to defeat every potential foe you face, you may have to retreat to your home base to get the equipment necessary to implement it. It's not like Bats carries around kryptonite on his utility belt every day just in case he runs into some rogue kryptonians. (Or an all-yellow suit to take down Green Lanterns, or some lead in case he runs into rogue daxamites, or...)

Batman is different than people like Michael Jordan and Stephen Hawking and Bruce Lee, even if, in the fiction, it's just because he chose a different job than these "normal people."

That just means he took a different career path- it doesn't elevate him above humanity.

A D&D fighter should be able to do the incredible things that Batman can do.

He can.

These things are not, when compared with the Real World, any different than the incredible things Achilles and Hercules and Gilgamesh and Musashi and Lancelot and Samson do.

But when compared to those characters within the context of their fiction, he's just a normal human, ad he starts coming up short.

Achilles was invulnerable but for a weak spot that would have been protected by better footwear choices.

Hercules and the other strongmen do things that, by definition within their realities, nobody else could do. Bats actually has rivals & superiors who could match his exploits.

Lancelot was the greatest warrior in the world AND blessed by God.

Miyamoto Musashi was a real life human, subject to all the limitations that implies- that he was a great warrior and writer does not elevate him beyond that. (Or were you referring to someone else?)

In the context of D&D (a fantasy stewpot), even if a warrior is some normal dude, he's not just a good athlete or a clever fighter. He's beyond that.

I disagree.

Why can't they fight like Batman fights?

As pointed out, he can.