How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[Diamond Cross]

Indiana Jones is not a Wizard, yet look at all the people he's defeated. Why, you could say he's even defeated God.

And Superman is primarily a fighter.

 

[Hussar]

ROTF - Batman survived an explosion Indiana Jones style and hid in the fridge. Nice.

 

[Diamond Cross]

Huh? Where did Batman survive in a fridge?

 

[Hussar]

He climbed into a safe and rode the blast to safety. I was making a somewhat lame joke.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Batman is an "ordinary man" compared to Superman, but still wins at the end of the day against other Evil Supermans.

As someone else pointed out, depending upon the particular writer.

By that I mean that on the one hand we have the Batman who was bogged down fighting other martial artists & mercenaries in a massive assault while another martial artist- Paul Kirk, Manhunter- cut through them like a knife through butter. Bats is good, but Kirk is far, far better.

Then you have the story to which you allude (written after my love affair with comics was over, so I haven't read it) in which he takes down multiple superhumans. (Those Evil Supermans must have been utter morons.)

That, to me, is not so much a commentary on the essential nature of Batman as it is evidence of crappy X crappy X crappy writing*.

...Kind of like when Electro discovered that Spider-Man could walk on walls due to static cling? Or when Spider-man took down Firelord- Galactus' herald, who had essentially fought the Fantastic Four to a standstill- in single combat.






* That is to say, crappy cubed.

 

[Hussar]

But, that being true DannyA, it still doesn't allow you to pick and choose which bits of canon you prefer.

Totally agree that there's been some horribly bad writing for Batman over the years. But, unfortunately, it's still canon.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

...it still doesn't allow you to pick and choose which bits of canon you prefer.

No, I still get to choose which parts of canon I prefer. I just can't make them not canon. (Still, even as idiotic as that described scenario was, did they offer any reason why he was able to do so?* Again, I don't know the storyline.)

I look at comic book cannon this way: if it stinks to high heaven, reject it...just like the comic book companies do.

The Static Cling Spidey thing worked for a while, but it was ultimately ignored out of relevance. Beyond a short patch of issues, AFAIK, they've never addressed it again. (And I bet they've come up with a different rationale by now.)

And clearly, this stinks to high heaven. IF he can take on multiple Evil Supermen, why was he slowed by mere martial artists in the Manhunter storyline? How do minions occasionally manage to get the best of him...EVER? (Bats HAS spent time in handcuffs and ropes, after all...)



* For instance, how did he avoid being hit by beings capable at moving at relativistic speeds? Why didn't they use their heat vision? Or an AoE attack like super breath? Was Bats using kryptonite or alien tech to level the playing field?

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I, uh, didn't literally mean he defeats evil clones of superman. I was refering to his ability to stand side-by-side with Mister Krypton and fight gigantic horrible monstrous magical supervillains.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Like I said- that storyline occurs long after I quit buying comics- I can only go by what I'm told here.

This whole thing reminds me of Karate Kid from Legion of Superheroes. Despite having "mastered every martial art developed up to the 31st century", he was initially rejected by the LoS because he "had no powers."

This is a guy who could dent steel with his fists- veeeery wuxia. He earned membership by fighting Superboy (whom he could not hurt). And once took on the entire Fatal Five single-handedly, clearly defeating the Persuader, Emerald Empress, and Mano (the last by luck, he claimed).

Arguably the best martial artist in the entire continuum of DC...

Could it be that they're setting up a tie in? Bats as the founder of "Super Jeet Kune Do?"

*blech*

I hope not.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

It existed long before D&D. Not sure where you are getting this from. I can name dozens of examples of myth and older fantasy literature against this assertion.

Most of those examples you would name would be non-wizard vs wizard stories or wizard/witch/other-spellcaster grants a boon and not "wizard and non-wizard team-up to go questing."

Not true at all. Merlin was always a powerful figure feared by the common knights. He was instrumental in Arthur's rise to power and manipulated the course of events to allow for Excalibur to be had and for Arthur to come to power. In the stories Merlin's motivations were not to be as powerful as possible like a player character one upping everyone else as you see in a common D&D group. Would have made for a rather boring story.

Merlin used his great power to elevate others and manipulate the affairs of men. He was heads and tails above them as an entity in both power and prestige.

And that is why I said major knights. Figures such as Gawain, Lancelot(ugh talk about a french Marty Stu), Percival, Galahad, Mordred, Tristan, Dinadan and even Arthur himself. These guys went around slaying dragons, beating up giants, thwarting the schemes of various sorcerers and enchantresses and defeating groups of a dozen or more rival knights. Each of these guys was just as feared/respected by the common knight as Merlin was.

The Knights of the Round Table were the medieval equivalent of the Justice League. Round Table pages and squire were often better knights than the knights other kings could field.

Agree about anime.

Thanks.

The wizard as a power is as old as time itself. Whether from the mythical figures of Circe or the wizard like gods of ancient myth, wizard type figures were always beings of great power that interfered with mortals for their own whims. They weren't adventuring characters hanging out with the local fighter as part of a group.

That is something from D&D.

That depends on how you define wizard. If you include wandering sages and priests who go around defeating supernatural threats then you have your adventuring wizards who sometimes hang out with various warriors.

* For instance, how did he avoid being hit by beings capable at moving at relativistic speeds? Why didn't they use their heat vision? Or an AoE attack like super breath? Was Bats using kryptonite or alien tech to level the playing field?

In the JLA: Tower of Babel story, Batman personally came up with the plans and manufactured most of the tools to disable the rest of the Justice League: Made Nanites that turn the Martian Manhunter's skin into Magnesium, a device that would cause Wonderwoman to be trapped within her own mind and fight an undefeatable opponent and a vibration-bullet that would give the Flash seizures, synthesized Red Kryptonite and a fear toxin that gave Aquaman sever hydrophobia, the only thing he didn't make himself was the freeze ray to stop Plastic Man because he had one already.

ROTF - Batman survived an explosion Indiana Jones style and hid in the fridge. Nice.

Actually Indy survived Batman style. I remember the story from Batman: the Animated Series and it probably was based off of a golden age story.