How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[Dannyalcatraz]

But in no way does Average Joe fresh out of basic mean you're extraordinary.

I want to expand on this:

The UAW has about 400k members. The Big 3 account for about 14m jobs overall. About 1m people in the USA consider farming to be their primary job. In comparison, 800k are employed as city/state/federal law enforcement of some kind. There are about 1.7m enlisted in the Army.

IOW, being a paid, trained fighting man isn't all that rare in the modern world.

Now, yes, it was rarer in the 13th century, but not so rare as some are implying.

 

[Diamond Cross]

I want to expand on this:

The UAW has about 400k members. The Big 3 account for about 14m jobs overall. About 1m people in the USA consider farming to be their primary job. In comparison, 800k are employed as city/state/federal law enforcement of some kind. There are about 1.7m enlisted in the Army.

IOW, being a paid, trained fighting man isn't all that rare in the modern world.

Now, yes, it was rarer in the 13th century, but not so rare as some are implying.

It is when you compare to a total population, especially a large one that has tens of millions or even hundreds of millions of people.

The united States currently has 310 million people.

So those numbers don't quite make up 10 percent of the population.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So those numbers don't quite make up 10 percent of the population.

But they are in roughly the same proportion to other "blue collar" jobs in the population- police are outnumbered by farmers, and farmers are roughly doubled upmby the Army.

In a medieval society, you'd have far more farmers than footmen...but footmen themselves would outnumber masons, tanners, coopers, smiths and many other "laborers."

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Danny, I'm curious:

(1) Are you a DM who considers class and level demographics, or do you place NPCs entirely as the game/your judgment requires?

(2) Would you consider an "average" farmer in 3.x something like a Com 3 or a Com 5? I ask because I'm wondering if you have a generally different notion of level to me in this regard.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I had to study population demographics for a Masters I was pursuing at one time, and I found the ones in RPGs were...off. So I basically ignore what's in RPG books and go with what I learned.

That said, I don't usually think about minor NPCs in terms of class unless & until players force the issue. So, a random encounter with a belligerent man in the streets could be anything- a drunk farmer, a slumming noble, a killer trying to pass his initiation into the local Assassin's Guild, a retired adventurer who mistakenly believes he's still the man...

In a structured encounter, I consider what the encounter is supposed to be about. So most laborers aren't going to have secret skills. But if Daddy is a former Imperial Captain who used his mustering out benefits to buy a small vinyard to raise his family on, you can bet he's taught his kids something of what he learned in the service. (I know too many cops' daughters who are dead-eye shots...)

Now, even then, I'm not going to make them equally skilled. Algernon may just not have fighting blood in him, after all, preferring the books his father's wealth brings in...

And if you listen to my NPC introductions, you may even get a feel for which ones are unusual and which ones aren't.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Likewise Clint Eastwood's character in The Outlaw Josey Wales begins as "a peaceful Missouri farmer" (The Outlaw Josey Wales - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Turns out, he has a talent for killing folks.

I haven't kept track of this tangent argument. But an awesome understatement. "A talent for killing folks". I like that. Makes me laugh.

So many great quotes in that movie.

"Dying ain't no kind of living."

"Buzzards gotta eat."

 

[I'm A Banana]

And there are still folks entrenched in the idea that, if your guy was a turnip farmer before he became a fighter, you are playing the game wrong!

I think the problem is actually that if your turnip farmers (or militia members or even town guards) have fighter stats, your fighter doesn't feel like a Fantasy Hero, he feels like a turnip farmer (or a militia member or a town guard).

Which is part of the problem of a wizard vs. warrior separation -- your wizards never feel like they are turnip farmers. Even at their least powerful, they are able to will an enemy to be hurt (magic missile!). And pretty quickly they can blast fire, fly, teleport, scry, make universes, turn into monsters, and summon demons to do their bidding.

But your fighter...well, he's a turnip farmer. Maybe even a well trained turnip farmer. Oh yipee.

This is part of why the fighters need to feel more like Batman and James Bond and Conan than like turnip farmers, militia members, or town guards.

Fighter levels are a lousy mechanic to model NPC commoners, which is why mechanics like the commoner NPC class were invented, and why 4e advises you not to bother statting up NPC commoners at all, and gives you rules like Minions for when you do.

Even commoners that are "skilled warriors" (town guards, trained militia, even three-star generals advising kings who once won decisive military victories) aren't FIGHTERS, just like even Commissioner Gordon is not BATMAN.

Now, there might be NPC fighters who are rivals, foils, antagonists, allies, underlings, etc. Batman needs his Robin, and, eventually, retires and is replaced by another Batman.

All these characters are much more powerful than a trained militia member. They are fantastic and unrealistic. That is what D&D fighters need to be if they are to rival the warriors in fantasy literature. That is part of why beet farmers, militia members, and town guards shouldn't be fighters (though a fighter could have been any of these in her past).

 

[Diamond Cross]

Why do the D&D fighters need to rival the warriors in literature?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think the problem is actually that if your turnip farmers (or militia members or even town guards) have fighter stats, your fighter doesn't feel like a Fantasy Hero, he feels like a turnip farmer (or a militia member or a town guard).

The difference between a turnip farmer who is S17 D13 C16 I12 W10 Ch 10 and a fighter with the same stats is Achilles' Choice.

Just because you're big & strong doesn't mean you want to be a warrior. They may get all the glory, those fightin' boys, but they tend to die young and far from home, far away from sweet Marie, the milkmaid...

So one slab 'o humanity learns to farm and farm while the other learns to farm & fight- then leaves town, a marginally better warrior than his rival. After he returns from his first campaign, though, he's probably the baddest thing they've seen in a decade.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Why do the D&D fighters need to rival the warriors in literature?

The same reason everytime anyone has used any sort of supernatural ability in any sort of fiction, it's been turned into a spell.

In fact, the opposite of that. Because in 3.x what swiftly happened is that there was a spell for everything, literally. Even the best class abilities were, at best, aping a different spell. The best fighter is a wizard who casts fighting spells. The best rogue is a wizard who casts rogue spells. Etc, etc.