How long do we wait for WoTC to speak?

Enrahim2

Adventurer
According to this leak/rumour Thread by @andreas_mwg on Thread Reader App WoTC are now planning to say on January 16th that existing published OGL 1.0 material is ok (can stay up), but that anything new has to use the new evil OGL 2.0 - and that OGL 2.0 will remain a trap, so this looks like confirmation that new products will need to be de-OGL'd.
"
The 'creator badge'
this seems a bit sus, and we'll have to see this badge when when it comes out.
but apparently the badge will have the D&D ampersand on it making it easy to identify for wizards and consumers, and remove the need for the OGL text inside the product " (My bolding)

Also worth noting that the OGL was the place where attribution was placed in OGL-1.0a. So not being open* (no provision for building on other people's work) is also an important enabler for being able to remove it :D

(*A possible (miss)reading of 1.0a section 9 however could indicate that at least the leaked OGL-1.1 would have enabled creators to use OGC with no attribution under OGL-1.1, though - hence making it "open" with regard to existing OGC)
 

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pemerton

Legend
According to this leak/rumour Thread by @andreas_mwg on Thread Reader App WoTC are now planning to say on January 16th that existing published OGL 1.0 material is ok (can stay up), but that anything new has to use the new evil OGL 2.0 - and that OGL 2.0 will remain a trap, so this looks like confirmation that new products will need to be de-OGL'd.
In what sense has to/need? As in, WotC wishes this to be so? Or a new legal reason has been discovered?
 


I think that's correct, as of about 3 days ago. WoTC's chance to salvage the situation was slipping away around the start of this week. If there was any remaining hope, I think it ended yesterday. People who matter are moving on now, moving away from them, while from what information we have about their thinking, they are at least a week behind where they'd have to be to salvage any trust.

I really do tend to think that D&D is effectively a dead brand now. Not that it couldn't come back in future, but this is comparable to the Perrier mineral water disaster, and the Dasani sparkling water disaster here in the UK. Those brands are gone here, and they're not coming back.

Edit: I stand corrected, googling indicates you can actually buy Perrier here. I've never seen it on sale, or even heard of it being on sale, since the time many years ago when they had a contamination issue. Maybe D&D will end up like that - still existing, but effectively ignored.
I think this is a pretty gross exaggeration of the situation. maybe WoTC killed the golden goose for now but they will continue to have a huge market share and be the most recognizable brand.
 

pemerton

Legend
As in WoTC says you can't do it & will threaten you. I think we agree their legal basis for this claim is very weak.
WotC's apparent goal is to drive 3PPs out of the D&D and D&D-adjacent market place. I think that (what seems to be a) widespread acceptance that they do enjoy a unilateral power to bring current licensing arrangements to an end, and (what seems to be a) widespread failure to focus on what I have bolded, is serving that goal.

(Whether their goal is consistent with their long term commercial interests is a further question that this post does not speculate on.)
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I think that's correct, as of about 3 days ago. WoTC's chance to salvage the situation was slipping away around the start of this week. If there was any remaining hope, I think it ended yesterday. People who matter are moving on now, moving away from them, while from what information we have about their thinking, they are at least a week behind where they'd have to be to salvage any trust.

I really do tend to think that D&D is effectively a dead brand now. Not that it couldn't come back in future, but this is comparable to the Perrier mineral water disaster, and the Dasani sparkling water disaster here in the UK. Those brands are gone here, and they're not coming back.

Edit: I stand corrected, googling indicates you can actually buy Perrier here. I've never seen it on sale, or even heard of it being on sale, since the time many years ago when they had a contamination issue. Maybe D&D will end up like that - still existing, but effectively ignored.
D&D isn't dead. The wild and wonderful OGL flora and fauna around D&D is what's dead.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I havent been following this too closely other than browsing some threads here on EN World. I just have a few questions, and simple yes or no answers or a few short sentences based in fact is all I'm after, not speculation.

1) Has WotC acknowledged the leaked revised OGL as theirs? As far as I know at this point it's just a draft, correct?
2) Has WotC made any official statements on the matter or given a time frame of when they'll address the situation?
no and no
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I just wanted to confirm that as of yesterday, my friend is pressing on with her team removing all copyrightable SRD material from her Kickstarter project and planning to release it non-OGL. I think the combination of silence from WoTC, yesterday's leak, and the community mood makes this the clear best approach.
This was the clear best approach already last week, but those details doesn't matter.
 


CapnZapp

Legend
As in WoTC says you can't do it & will threaten you. I think we agree their legal basis for this claim is very weak.
I think we also agree the weight of their legal basis doesn't matter.

It is the lack of threat that made people play in WotC's playground.

Now the kids have scattered, and no amount of candy will bring them back.
 

Reynard

Legend
This is plausible, and was part of Dancey's rationale for the OLG - ie contra some recent posts it was not "altruistic" but rather a calculated method of increasing WotC's market share and profits.
These are not mutually exclusive. You can, in fact, do something that financially benefits you and creates a general good in society or culture. Dancy clearly believed the OGL would do both (and I think evidence strongly suggests he was right).

This aspect is what i think got many of us so irritated with WotC when all this started: there was no reason WotC couldn't continue to see record growth and profits, and at the same time maintain the good that was Open Gaming. They actively chose to burn down Open gaming. We just don't quite know why yet. I'm assuming greed and hubris, but it is possible someone had a legitimate (if ill conceived) plan.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
WotC's apparent goal is to drive 3PPs out of the D&D and D&D-adjacent market place. I think that (what seems to be a) widespread acceptance that they do enjoy a unilateral power to bring current licensing arrangements to an end, and (what seems to be a) widespread failure to focus on what I have bolded, is serving that goal.

(Whether their goal is consistent with their long term commercial interests is a further question that this post does not speculate on.)
The important part is that they no longer want to share D&D with anybody.

Now they will have to face the consequences of being viewed as greedy, harsh and shortsighted.

And, they will have to compete with new exiting games that release just when D&D One is to be released. Even if those game steal only 10% of the market share (and Paizo's PF1 stole a heck of a lot more than that) it easily represents a far greater loss than all the license fees the OGL 1.1 could ever generate...
 


CapnZapp

Legend
Each moment that they're stalling is working against them.
They can't do anything. They will never get the bosses to sign on to something that can actually save this, since the bosses job is to generate out of D&D now.

Ryan Dancey's theory is wonderful :)


Note the video should start at the 1 hour 12 minute 25 seconds mark, or thereabouts. You need to watch him speak for six minutes, give or take.
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
WotC already competes with exciting games, some of them new and some not.

I personally don't find a D&D clone neo-trad vehicle more exciting because it's commercialised by Paizo rather than WotC.
That's relativization that misses the point.

The point is that the one thing WotC doesn't want, is its former fans releasing fantasy games that directly target D&D gamers, and does so right when WotC releases a brand new edition.

This is not obscure neckbeards releasing strange games. This will be the recognizable faces that used to love WotC and D&D, that now tell you to play their games instead of D&D One, a brand which says it is "open" when everybody agrees it is not.

D&D One is anything but "the one game that brings everybody together". It will be known as the edition that made everybody leave the party, and it isn't unlikely that at least one of the competitor games will become a new Paizo with a new "D&D but better" type of game offering.
 

S'mon

Legend
WotC's apparent goal is to drive 3PPs out of the D&D and D&D-adjacent market place. I think that (what seems to be a) widespread acceptance that they do enjoy a unilateral power to bring current licensing arrangements to an end, and (what seems to be a) widespread failure to focus on what I have bolded, is serving that goal.

Yes, but sadly we need to distinguish between

1. Legal reality, that WoTC almost certainly cannot legally revoke OGL 1.0 licencing of their SRDs even for future products, with
2. Commercial reality, that any future Kickstarter still including OGL 1.0 is likely to be seen as tainted by potential backers.

We can both advise #1, but the people like my friend, with money in the game, have to think about #2.
 


pemerton

Legend
The point is that the one thing WotC doesn't want, is its former fans releasing fantasy games that directly target D&D gamers, and does so right when WotC releases a brand new edition.

This is not obscure neckbeards releasing strange games. This will be the recognizable faces that used to love WotC and D&D, that now tell you to play their games instead of D&D One, a brand which says it is "open" when everybody agrees it is not.
Paizo already publishes games that compete directly with WotC. I don't see how they are more of a commercial thread to WotC by ceasing to be licensed under the OGL, and instead putting their legal eggs into the non-copyright-infringement basket.
 


Reynard

Legend
Paizo already publishes games that compete directly with WotC. I don't see how they are more of a commercial thread to WotC by ceasing to be licensed under the OGL, and instead putting their legal eggs into the non-copyright-infringement basket.
I don't think PF2 directly competes with 5E. A little bit around the edges, maybe, but the differences in complexity level really do put most fans in one or the other camp. The thing that Kobold is likely to do is create a game that DOES directly compete with WotC for 5E players.
 

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