How long do we wait for WoTC to speak?

[Dausuul]

I see Gizmodo says WoTC are delaying - Wizards of the Coast Cancels OGL Announcement After Online Ire

Man, Linda Codega is killing it right now.

 

[pemerton]

Nobody (nobody that counts anyway) disputes WotC's legal right to change or terminate the license.

I'm happy to accept that I and my fellow posters on some of the "lawyer" threads don't count. But many of us do dispute that WotC enjoys any legal power to unilaterally change the terms of, or bring to an end, the licences it has entered into with other publishers on the terms of the OGL v 1.0a.

The 3PP market is why D&D is so dominant on the market. It's all the 3PP's work, not the WotC products that is the reason why nearly everything revolves around D&D.

It doesn't matter whether the change is legal or whether WotC is "owed" royalties from Pathfinder.

All that matters is that WotC has destroyed the community trust in them, and now everybody will compete directly against D&D One.

I don't think this is plausible. And far and away the biggest 3PP, Paizo, already competes directly against D&D.

 

[Matt Thomason]

I don't think this is plausible. And far and away the biggest 3PP, Paizo, already competes directly against D&D.

While that's certainly true, I think we can't completely discount the value that the 3PP support has added to the product line without requiring WotC to output as much material themselves in the current edition (compared to previous ones). That kept their system "alive" while allowing them to reduce their D&D studio output in comparison to, say, 3e, and put the lion's share of the burden of adventure production (usually the smaller sellers as only the DMs tend to buy them) onto 3PPs.

 

[pemerton]

While that's certainly true, I think we can't completely discount the value that the 3PP support has added to the product line without requiring WotC to output as much material themselves in the current edition (compared to previous ones). That kept their system "alive" while allowing them to reduce their D&D studio output in comparison to, say, 3e, and put the lion's share of the burden of adventure production (usually the smaller sellers as only the DMs tend to buy them) onto 3PPs.

This is plausible, and was part of Dancey's rationale for the OLG - ie contra some recent posts it was not "altruistic" but rather a calculated method of increasing WotC's market share and profits.

But I was rejecting the claim that 3PP is why D&D is so dominant, and are the reason everything revolves around D&D. I think one of those reasons is the network externalities that Dancey used to go on about - 3PPs plug into those, and reinforce them, but didn't create them. I think another reason is that the style of RPGing that has been most popular from the mid-80s on has been catered to be every approach to D&D since then with the exception of 4e. That style benefits from lush boxed sets, lush setting books, lush adventure and campaign guides. And only the biggest publishers have the resources to produce these - and so again there is a positive reinforcement mechanism that helps make one publisher dominant.

Other publishers that have at various times been prominent - eg GDW with Traveller, ICE with RM/MERP, Chaosium with RQ and CoC, WW with Vampire - have found themselves able to replicate that model. The only publisher I know of at the moment who is doing that is Paizo, pursuant to the OGL, and are already in direct competition with WotC. Maybe there are others I'm ignorant of, who also have the wherewithal to capture a significant share of the D&D market by offering support for the same model.

 

[Umbran]

I mean, I feel like I must be missing something, because I don't know how you could keep sources confidential and say who confirmed it, especially if they confirmed it with materials/evidence they themselves possessed. What am I not getting?

Like, "We, at Gizmodo, have confirmed the provenance of this document as being legitimate, though the source requested anonymity."

Then, when I have to speak of it, I say, "Gizmodo verified this", or "These two guys with a podcast say it was legit."

I then get to put on my critical thinking cap, and ask myself how much I trust two guys I've never heard of on a podcast I've never heard of, or Gizmodo, or the NYT, or whatever.

 

[Umbran]

This is plausible, and was part of Dancey's rationale for the OLG - ie contra some recent posts it was not "altruistic" but rather a calculated method of increasing WotC's market share and profits.

In nature, altruism is based in the empirically demonstrable tendency for what goes around comes around. I may not know exactly how I get a payoff, but I likely will, at some point. Altruism just leaves the accounting to the natural series of events, rather than needing a contract signed in blood.

 

[mamba]

Even if WotC completely pulled back, it would not change a thing.

Even if WotC is legally 100% right, or 100% wrong... nothing changes.

The value of the OGL was in its ability to make 3PPs trust WotC.

That's gone, no matter what any court will say.

assuming a court finds the license irrevocable, then the 3PPs no longer have to trust Wizard when using 1.0a...

The question then simply becomes is WotC ok with doing business under 1DD using 1.0a, and the answer to that still is 'hell no'

 

[CapnZapp]

assuming a court finds the license irrevocable, then the 3PPs no longer have to trust Wizard when using 1.0a...

The question then simply becomes is WotC ok with doing business under 1DD using 1.0a, and the answer to that still is 'hell no'

Assume all of this is settled long before any court gets a say in the matter. By "settled" I mean that in a year's time everybody whose trust in WotC is gone will have left the OGL permanently. Some will even create games that directly compete against D&D One - that is, games that offer similar themes and "texture" as D&D. The legalities of OGL won't matter - by then it's all inconsequential.

And that's without saying how improbable a court decision that clearly states "y'all can play in WotCs garden for free" would be. At the absolute minimum WotC would then take steps to make that victory meaningless, but we're already stretching as is.

And the bigger point is that the trust is what built the community, not any legal counsel. Now that trust is gone, and that's all there's to it.

Your second sentence seems to get it, but there's still an awful lot of focus (from others) on whether this thing can be saved. Newsflash: it's already unsavable.

PS. A general thanks to the hordes of people who have thanked my various posts (in various threads)! My total thanks value must have doubled or more in a week compared to decades of being an EN World member...

 

[Jadeite]

Going from OGL 1.1 to OGL 2.0 might be an attempt to prevent people who search for news of the new license (once they officially announce it) from seeing all the negativity 1.1 has gotten. It will probably not work, but I guess it's worth a try for them.

 

[S'mon]

And the bigger point is that the trust is what built the community, not any legal counsel. Now that trust is gone, and that's all there's to it.

Your second sentence seems to get it, but there's still an awful lot of focus (from others) on whether this thing can be saved. Newsflash: it's already unsavable.

I think that's correct, as of about 3 days ago. WoTC's chance to salvage the situation was slipping away around the start of this week. If there was any remaining hope, I think it ended yesterday. People who matter are moving on now, moving away from them, while from what information we have about their thinking, they are at least a week behind where they'd have to be to salvage any trust.

I really do tend to think that D&D is effectively a dead brand now. Not that it couldn't come back in future, but this is comparable to the Perrier mineral water disaster, and the Dasani sparkling water disaster here in the UK. Those brands are gone here, and they're not coming back.

Edit: I stand corrected, googling indicates you can actually buy Perrier here. I've never seen it on sale, or even heard of it being on sale, since the time many years ago when they had a contamination issue. Maybe D&D will end up like that - still existing, but effectively ignored.