D&D 5E How Many 5Es Can There Be?

[Reynard]

This came up in another thread and I thought it was worth discussing separately:

I don't hate 5e, just the last few years of WotC's version of it, and their plans going forward. Its not my fault that's what so many people want to talk about and assume as a baseline. Plenty of better 5es out there.

Just how many 5E RPGs can there be? How many will the market and community support?

By "5E RPG" I mean (and I think @Micah Sweet also meant) games built on the 5E SRD that, while expanding on and/or tweaking WotC 5E, don't veer too far from its design. So, LevelUp and Valiant are "5E RPGs" but Shadowdark isn't (but it is still awesome).

As it is, once 2024 5E comes out, we will have four significant 5E RPGs: LevelUp, TOme of the Valiant, 2014 5E and 2024 5E. There are likely some less known 5E RPGs already out there and I am sure other folks are doing their own things with the 5E SRD as we speak.

So, how many different versions of 5E can the community support? Will the presence of unofficial 5E games cause disruptions for WotC with the 2024 roll out? Are any non 2024 5E games even viable once it rolls out? Will people continue to play 2014 5E?

What do you think?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Well, in the 80s there was 0D&D, Basic D&D, 1e AD&D, B/X, BECMI, Arduin Grimoire, Tunnels & Trolls, Judges' Guild, and so forth.

So, lots. Whatever the market will bear.

 

[Reynard]

Well, in the 80s there was 0D&D, Basic D&D, 1e AD&D, B/X, BECMI, Arduin Grimoire, Tunnels & Trolls, and so forth.

So, lots. Whatever the market will bear.

Asking "how many 5Es" should limit your examples to "Basic, B/X and BECMI" and I don't know why you put T&T in there at all.

 

[Parmandur]

This came up in another thread and I thought it was worth discussing separately:


Just how many 5E RPGs can there be? How many will the market and community support?

By "5E RPG" I mean (and I think @Micah Sweet also meant) games built on the 5E SRD that, while expanding on and/or tweaking WotC 5E, don't veer too far from its design. So, LevelUp and Valiant are "5E RPGs" but Shadowdark isn't (but it is still awesome).

As it is, once 2024 5E comes out, we will have four significant 5E RPGs: LevelUp, TOme of the Valiant, 2014 5E and 2024 5E. There are likely some less known 5E RPGs already out there and I am sure other folks are doing their own things with the 5E SRD as we speak.

So, how many different versions of 5E can the community support? Will the presence of unofficial 5E games cause disruptions for WotC with the 2024 roll out? Are any non 2024 5E games even viable once it rolls out? Will people continue to play 2014 5E?

What do you think?

Depends on what you mean by "support". Also, questionable how distinct many of these will be: every indication is that 2014 books (like Tasha's or MotM) will keep being sold by WotC, and Kobold Press is billing their supplements as for both 5E and ToV.

As it stands, ToV git 10,000 backers on Kickstarter. KP is probably very happywith having 10,000 or so regular customers. WotC is still selling 2000 PHBs a week, not counting FLGS sales or Beyond (which has 13 million users). So, no, ultimately there won't be a lot of brand confusion.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This came up in another thread and I thought it was worth discussing separately:


Just how many 5E RPGs can there be? How many will the market and community support?

By "5E RPG" I mean (and I think @Micah Sweet also meant) games built on the 5E SRD that, while expanding on and/or tweaking WotC 5E, don't veer too far from its design. So, LevelUp and Valiant are "5E RPGs" but Shadowdark isn't (but it is still awesome).

As it is, once 2024 5E comes out, we will have four significant 5E RPGs: LevelUp, TOme of the Valiant, 2014 5E and 2024 5E. There are likely some less known 5E RPGs already out there and I am sure other folks are doing their own things with the 5E SRD as we speak.

So, how many different versions of 5E can the community support? Will the presence of unofficial 5E games cause disruptions for WotC with the 2024 roll out? Are any non 2024 5E games even viable once it rolls out? Will people continue to play 2014 5E?

What do you think?

That is what I meant, thank you.

By "community support", I assume you mean economic viability? That's going to depend on how well the game in question balances similarity to 5e's basic chassis with rules (and perhaps tonal) differences that can get it an audience that isn't completely served by WotC. And of course marketing. Very important for financial success.

A game made by a bigger company, like Paizo or Kobold Press, has a good shot. A game that already has strong support, like Level Up, has a better one IMO. Beyond that, you need a good idea and a good implementation. A solid, well-marketed science fiction game for 5e could do very well, for example, at least potentially.

Any successful 5e may cut into WotC's release a little, but those who know me know I have no problem with that. Probably not much though (unfortunately IMO), as WotC's status as the IP holder lets them throw their weight around.

 

[Asisreo]

and I don't know why you put T&T in there at all.

Probably to get grognards to explode

 

[Tony Vargas]

Asking "how many 5Es" should limit your examples to "Basic, B/X and BECMI" and I don't know why you put T&T in there at all.

I know past performance is no gaurantee, but the 80s were a bit like now - D&D was a fad with a lot of mainstream recognition and it was selling well. The result was multiple versions of the game out at once, and a host of imitators and unauthorized supplements. That they suffered litigation rather than had an OGL only serves to illustrate how strong the bandwagon impetus can be.

 

[Oligopsony]

OSR is proof of concept that you can have arbitrarily many close-enough systems that people mix and match from with impunity.

5e is crunchier, though, the culture is less DIY, and small balance differences are seen as more important, so in practice I would expect more consolidation. The example of 3e showed really only room for one retroclone, for instance, even if Fantasy Craft still has a cult following and Trailblazer had some interesting ideas.

If I had to guess, I would say that (1) most less enfranchised players are going to go with whatever variant their DM says they’re doing (2) most less enfranchised players with an opinion are going to want to follow DNDB into 2024 5e, and (3) DMs will break roughly even in terms of own familiarity with 2014 and player interest in 2024 official status. Anything else is going to be a blip in the same way that all non-5e stuff is a blip. (Happy to be wrong here, of course.)

 

[Reynard]

OSR is proof of concept that you can have arbitrarily many close-enough systems that people mix and match from with impunity.

5e is crunchier, though, the culture is less DIY, and small balance differences are seen as more important, so in practice I would expect more consolidation. The example of 3e showed really only room for one retroclone, for instance, even if Fantasy Craft still has a cult following and Trailblazer had some interesting ideas.

If I had to guess, I would say that (1) most less enfranchised players are going to go with whatever variant their DM says they’re doing (2) most less enfranchised players with an opinion are going to want to follow DNDB into 2024 5e, and (3) DMs will break roughly even in terms of own familiarity with 2014 and player interest in 2024 official status. Anything else is going to be a blip in the same way that all non-5e stuff is a blip. (Happy to be wrong here, of course.)

Good points, all.

 

[Micah Sweet]

OSR is proof of concept that you can have arbitrarily many close-enough systems that people mix and match from with impunity.

5e is crunchier, though, the culture is less DIY, and small balance differences are seen as more important, so in practice I would expect more consolidation. The example of 3e showed really only room for one retroclone, for instance, even if Fantasy Craft still has a cult following and Trailblazer had some interesting ideas.

If I had to guess, I would say that (1) most less enfranchised players are going to go with whatever variant their DM says they’re doing (2) most less enfranchised players with an opinion are going to want to follow DNDB into 2024 5e, and (3) DMs will break roughly even in terms of own familiarity with 2014 and player interest in 2024 official status. Anything else is going to be a blip in the same way that all non-5e stuff is a blip. (Happy to be wrong here, of course.)

I really hope that's not true, and even if it is, a blip from WotC's perspective may very well be enough for someone not beholden to WotC's shareholders.