D&D (2024) How many classes do you want to see this edition?

[Yaarel]

I feel the 5e Wizard class should focus on magic relating to: magical energy and force effects, the four elements, and illusion.

What these themes have in common is the nature of reality and creativity.



The Wizard should lose Enchantment to the Bard.

The Wizard should lose Necromancy (including Undead, Fiend, and Aberration) to the Warlock and Cleric.

The Wizard should lose any Beast and Plant spells to the Druid. Even spells like Clone should go elsewhere.

Even Divination with Teleportation should only be a Wizard subclass, or else split off entirely to the Bard and Cleric.

 

[tetrasodium]

I didn't see design going that way. I saw it as getting spell like or monster like abilities as you spell slots run it.

Dragon would go monstrous.
Storm would get lightning spell like.
Wild would go all survey.
Favordsoul/Celestial would get SMITE and HEAL.



I didn't mean I didn't think lightning or air sorcerers wouldn't exist.

I meant they wouldn't turn into monsters but get at will lightning spells.

There are plenty of lightning themed creatures & ways to use lightning without resorting to lightning bolt. Why not & what makes it different from an evoker who chooses lightning spells if they "get at will lightning spells"? Touch attack abilities, short range teleport abilities, incorporeal abilities, damage/reflect shield abilities, lightning aura abilities, etc... All of those & more could be justified by transforming all or part of the sorcerer's body to varying degrees into various elemental themed monsters

If you are saying that the problem is reverse gish is not a big enough niche to fit more than just the dragon sorcerer then does that not also confirm that "wizard but element & charisma" is not a big enough niche either. Do we acknowledge that charisma as a primary attribute is much more valuable than intelligence as a primary stat while giving "wizard but x & charisma" extra stuff?

 

[Frozen_Heart]

One really frustrating thing about the sorcerer is that you can't even true polymorph or shapechange into your bloodline creature at level 20.

Neltharion the dragonborn draconic sorcerer can't turn into a dragon. But Timmy the gnome over there who plays the flute. Yep he totally can!

It feels like you're actively discouraged from trying to push into your theme.

 

[Minigiant]

There are plenty of lightning themed creatures & ways to use lightning without resorting to lightning bolt. Why not & what makes it different from an evoker who chooses lightning spells if they "get at will lightning spells"? Touch attack abilities, short range teleport abilities, incorporeal abilities, damage/reflect shield abilities, lightning aura abilities, etc... All of those & more could be justified by transforming all or part of the sorcerer's body to varying degrees into various elemental themed monsters

If you are saying that the problem is reverse gish is not a big enough niche to fit more than just the dragon sorcerer then does that not also confirm that "wizard but element & charisma" is not a big enough niche either. Do we acknowledge that charisma as a primary attribute is much more valuable than intelligence as a primary stat while giving "wizard but x & charisma" extra stuff?

What I am saying that fro. The playtest, I saw the sorcerer as a pseudo at day class.

Meaning when it has spell slots, it works like a normal caster just themed.

Draconic would have elemental spells.
Wild would have powerful but chaotic spells.
Storm would focus on wind, thunder, and lightning spells.
Divine mixed in healing, radiant, and necrotic spells.
Aberrant would have telekinetic and telepathic spells
"Arcane" has fast rituals and wand magic.

But when they run out of slots, they can potentially tap into a new role.

Draconic goes Heavy Gish
Wild goes harder on Control
Storm shifts to a Striker/Control as it zips around zapping and knocking stuff around.
Celestial turns into a healbot
Aberrant goes into Psionic control mode
"Arcane" goes pew pew with suped up cantrips.

As it a subclass, I figured the amount of crazy would be tempered down somewhat and not be extremely versatile.

 

[tetrasodium]

What I am saying that fro. The playtest, I saw the sorcerer as a pseudo at day class.

Meaning when it has spell slots, it works like a normal caster just themed.

Draconic would have elemental spells.
Wild would have powerful but chaotic spells.
Storm would focus on wind, thunder, and lightning spells.
Divine mixed in healing, radiant, and necrotic spells.
Aberrant would have telekinetic and telepathic spells
"Arcane" has fast rituals and wand magic.

But when they run out of slots, they can potentially tap into a new role.

Draconic goes Heavy Gish
Wild goes harder on Control
Storm shifts to a Striker/Control as it zips around zapping and knocking stuff around.
Celestial turns into a healbot
Aberrant goes into Psionic control mode
"Arcane" goes pew pew with suped up cantrips.

As it a subclass, I figured the amount of crazy would be tempered down somewhat and not be extremely versatile.

I don't think that blaster who burns up their spell slots then after using them all shifts to a second very functional sounding role would be balanced. It sounds more like a PC made using the 3.5 UA gestalt rules. The various creature related abilities should be fueled by spell slots not free after they "run out" unless you are talking about something like making sorcerer half caster .

 

[Parmandur]

I do strongly feel that 'wizard but hot' is not enough of a thematic niche to justify a sorcerer class.

That's not the niche, though: mwtamagic effects are. And those can be very awesome if used well.

 

[Minigiant]

I don't think that blaster who burns up their spell slots then after using them all shifts to a second very functional sounding role would be balanced. It sounds more like a PC made using the 3.5 UA gestalt rules. The various creature related abilities should be fueled by spell slots not free after they "run out" unless you are talking about something like making sorcerer half caster .

Very functional sounding role is a bit much.

The playtest draconic sorcerers just got +2 melee attacks and resistance to their dragon damage type on top of d8 HD heavy armor, martial weapons, and shields. That's isn't enough to replace a warrior type for long.

I expected the wild mage sorcerer to be able to wild surge at will and get bonuses based on rolls.

Now transforming or unlocking power wouldn't have been my favorite. However I love the idea that origin could grant a foot into a second role. Draconic into Tank. Wild into Control. Cosmic into Scholar. Storm into Utility. Shadow into Damage. It would put the sorcerer as being special compared to the wizard as they'd have a multiple non-concentration buffs on them.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

That's not the niche, though: mwtamagic effects are. And those can be very awesome if used well.

I just find metamagic thematically dry. Especially when combined with the small subclass power budget sorcerers have. It's essentially making a class out of a glorified feat.

 

[tetrasodium]

Very functional sounding role is a bit much.

The playtest draconic sorcerers just got +2 melee attacks and resistance to their dragon damage type on top of d8 HD heavy armor, martial weapons, and shields. That's isn't enough to replace a warrior type for long.

I expected the wild mage sorcerer to be able to wild surge at will and get bonuses based on rolls.

Now transforming or unlocking power wouldn't have been my favorite. However I love the idea that origin could grant a foot into a second role. Draconic into Tank. Wild into Control. Cosmic into Scholar. Storm into Utility. Shadow into Damage. It would put the sorcerer as being special compared to the wizard as they'd have a multiple non-concentration buffs on them.

That shows the gap between what we are talking about. I think the monstrous abilities should be at least as competent as college of swords bards/rangers/etc. draconic might get bite/claw/tail & even a EB type breath weapon with serious costs to their spell slots/progression that justifies it. The various other beastly gish but x-twist archetypes could have abilities fitting & themed to their bloodline. Like the moon druid, casting is the secondary role not primary.

If "gish but X" isn't big enough to support an entire class though doesn't that also make it pretty clear that "wizard but x" is likewise not big enough to support an entire class. At least gish but X isn't copying some other class.

 

[Remathilis]

If "gish but X" isn't big enough to support an entire class though doesn't that also make it pretty clear that "wizard but x" is likewise not big enough to support an entire class. At least gish but X isn't copying some other class.

It's not that gish but x couldn't support an entire class, it's that "you slowly become a monster" is limiting. Especially if the transformation is limited to the four levels you get subclass features on.

I think the current "wizard but x" is fine, it just needs a lot more spell support and more going on than metamagic.