How many people can be in a 5'X5' square?

[kreynolds]

Of course, that's a bit more than a rules interpretation, that's more like a House Rule.

I never said how I handle it was a "core rule".

 

[kreynolds]

If this is somehow a problem, feel free to email me.

On the way.

Incidentally, it seems to me that there's no reason that someone should lose their save because two people are in a 5' x 5' square. At the very least, each of them could grab the other and try to use them as cover.

The cover idea is interesting. I should adopt that as a third option in situations like these. Could make it really interesting.

 

[Artoomis]

I never said how I handle it was a "core rule".

Really?

From your previous posts:

Originally posted by kreynolds
What pontus said. Also, if you're sharing a square with someone, and you get popped with a fireball, you just gave up any chance at a saving throw, even if you're a 250th level rogue, but the worst part is that if you're denied your save, evasion doesn't help you one bit.

Originally posted by EOL
Is this your personal feeling on the subject, a house rule you've implemented in your own campaign or some obscure quasi-official rule I'm unaware of?

Originally posted by kreynolds

DMG, page 76, Evasion and Improved Evasion:

As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one in a completely restrictive area (crawling through a 2 1/2 foot-wide shaft, for example) cannot use evasion.

Hope you like the taste of your own foot.

Looks like you were claiming that two characters in a square denies them both their Reflex Saves was THE RULE.

I guess you are now backing off of that, and only saying that it is YOUR RULE? If that's accurate, then great - I'm personaly always glad to "hear" your opinion. I follow your logic, and it's not unreasonable. Let's just be clear that's it's not the way the rules are written.

 

[kreynolds]

Really?

Yes. Really.

Looks like you were claiming that two characters in a square denies them both their Reflex Saves was THE RULE.

Nope. It may look like that, but only if you aren't aware of how subjective this matter is in the DMG.

I guess you are now backing off of that, and only saying that it is YOUR RULE?

Nope. I have nothing to back off of. I never claimed it was the rule. The info in the DMG essentially leaves it up to you to decide when you should and shouldn't allow a reflex save.

Let's just be clear that's it's not the way the rules are written.

I know it's not the way the rules are written, and again, I never claimed they were. A lot of assumptions were made, and it would appear they were made because many thought there was a rule that opposed my opinion (way up at the top), when in fact, a rule does not exist at all.

 

[IanB]

The info in the DMG essentially leaves it up to you to decide when you should and shouldn't allow a reflex save.

Then why didn't you say this in the first place, instead of giving your example about the 250th level rogue as if it was fact?

 

[kreynolds]

Then why didn't you say this in the first place, instead of giving your example about the 250th level rogue as if it was fact?

I didn't state it as fact. I didn't even supply a page number when I mentioned the 250th level rogue. It was my opinion. I later supplied a page number in the DMG to show that the only thing you can have in this matter is an opinion, as there are no rules to cover this. Also, see my previous post.

 

[Tyros]

The whole "movement in a 5 foot square" abstraction is really hampered by the concept of area-effect spells. If you have someone standing at the end of a 5' corridor, that is the standard 8' ceiling, how are they supposed to somehow make a reflex save against a fireball with a 20' diameter? Nobody that I know (myself included) pictures a fireball as anything but a 20' diameter globe filled with fire. You can't really say they suddenly move 25 feet when they dodge and move their character on the map. That's pretty much a rules violation. If you say there's no reasonable way to make the save, suddenly the fireball spell is too powerful.

Cooking a party with fireballs when they're in a bare 10x10 room is realistic, how are they supposed to be able to make the reflex saves (i.e. get out of the way of the blast?). Now, I can see how you could drop to the ground in time to take half damage, but with evasion, how can you logically justify the character taking no damage without exiting the affected squares? I know it just works for sake of game mechanics, but this is where I see real merit in the parties that say "no reflex save if you're grappled". If you're pinned, how could you claim to still be able to make the reflex save? You're immobilized; similar to the dragon's mouth example.

Just looking for some reasonable explanations.

 

[EOL]

I didn't state it as fact. I didn't even supply a page number when I mentioned the 250th level rogue. It was my opinion. I later supplied a page number in the DMG to show that the only thing you can have in this matter is an opinion, as there are no rules to cover this. Also, see my previous post.

You've completely reversed yourself.

Perhaps I should explain why everyone is accusing you of saying that it was a rule. When I asked you if it was a rule and you quoted a page number in the DMG most people took that as you saying "This is a rule and here is the page number." When I responded by saying, "No I think it's your opinion." A contention you said, "didn't hold mych water." Once again people took it as you saying this was not your opinion. Now you are quite clearly stating that it is.

Perhaps this whole thing was an honest case of miscommunication, I don't know, I'm just telling you what it looked like to me.

 

[kreynolds]

You've completely reversed yourself.

That would require that I was facing the other direction in the first place, which I wasn't. So no, I didn't reverse myself at all.

When I asked you if it was a rule

No. You didn't simply ask me if it was a rule. You asked "Is this your personal feeling on the subject, a house rule you've implemented in your own campaign or some obscure quasi-official rule I'm unaware of?"

I found that rather condescending, by the way. *shrug* Anyway, I pointed you to the appropriate passages in the DMG so that you could see the answer for yourself.

When I responded by saying, "No I think it's your opinion." A contention you said, "didn't hold mych water." Once again people took it as you saying this was not your opinion.

That's not really my concern, as I was plenty clear enough. I never stated it was a "rule". I pointed out the appropriate passages in the DMG that state quite clearly that there is no rule. The DM has to make a call, use his own judgement, regarding when you do or do not get a save.

Now you are quite clearly stating that it is.

I think I've been clear since my second and third post. Oh well.

Perhaps this whole thing was an honest case of miscommunication, I don't know, I'm just telling you what it looked like to me.

I don't know that it was a miscommunication, but it was certainly a misunderstanding, which is what happens when people jump to conclusions. *shrug*

At least it's over now.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

You also have to use some sort of logic.

That's not always the best of ideas in a game. Especially not a fantasy game. It makes for good entertainment to apply thorough logic to fantasy (see Terry Pratchett) but it tends to spoil fun quickly!

If you're in a corridor that's 5-feet wide and 10-feet high, and a fireball goes off at your feet, seriously, where are you gonna go? Left? Nope, fireball goes there. Right? Nope, fireball goes there too. Back? Again, that fireball problem. Forward. Again, that fireball problem. Up? Same thing. Down? Same thing. Quite literally, the are you are in is completely filled by the fireball, so there really isn't anywhere to go.

If there was no chance to make the save in a 5-ft-corridor in the first place, the whole 2-people-sharing-a-5-ft-square qould be moot. But, as a fact, it is possible to make a save under that circumstances. Imagine they lay flat on the floor or just find the areas where the fire is not so hot or where there's a breach in the fireball (I don't think its a solid ball of fire, it's more like a big burst, and they're not regular).

In fact I know several stories where a DM killed players with physics. The fireball in the small cave where it consumed all the air and such like. I just isn't fun to play with such a DM. It's all supposed to be a game, no representation of real life.

This is all circumstantial, so it's no wonder that there aren't any hard and fast rules to go by.

In fact, it doesn't say that you must have something to duck behind, or really much space to move, it just says that you have to be able to move and may not be confined overmuch (such as in a corridor just wide enough for you to fit in). That's rule enough for me.