How many people here do actual magic? How do you do it?

[Ace]

On the other side, I'll remind folks that anyone who can demonstrate paranormal powers reliably and on command has a million dollars waiting for them in the bank.

Daniel

Don't waste your time with Randi. If Elminster showed up and transformed the audience in Neo Otyughs Randi wouldn't pay out

 

[JPL]

Why would you expect something subjective to be proven or demonstrated by objective standards? As Crowley put it, Magick has no objective reality or philosophical validity... just by doing certain things, certain other things occur. That's all.

I think Crowley was saying that the cosmological explantation / mechanics he was discussing might or might not be true.

If magic is a system of "doing certain things to make certain other things occur," then it should be testable, assuming that the results are measurable in some way.

Take your two groups of people. One does a love spell, or a money spell, or a fireball...the other does not. To the extent that Group A generates the desired result of love/money/fireball and Group B does not, we might have made magic [although maybe other explanations involving currently understood scientific principles could exist]

If the "certain other things" are abstract or otherwise not readily measured...well, that's pretty convenient for Alistair, isn't it?

All I'm asking for is a cantrip. Make your finger glow, bend a spoon...do something which defies explanation.

 

[Victim]

I think RL life magic requires lots more expensive components and foci than DnD magic. Some things are more like magic items since they keep working - like my magic games and communication box. Fireball spell definitely require preparation, but most of them require some sort of additional launching item or spell too.

Of course, RL magic works better with groups than DnD magic, and has no XP costs.

 

[pensiv]

I think Crowley was saying that the cosmological explantation / mechanics he was discussing might or might not be true.

If magic is a system of "doing certain things to make certain other things occur," then it should be testable, assuming that the results are measurable in some way.
. . .
All I'm asking for is a cantrip. Make your finger glow, bend a spoon...do something which defies explanation.

What he was saying was that whether or not gods, spirits, etc. were real entities, working with them as if they are real in the ways he outlined brought about results. Whether those results are "successful" is subjective because the intent of the work is subjective, not objective.

In certain situations there are objectively quantifiable outcomes, but Crowley wasn't teaching people to make their finger glow or bend spoons, he was teaching them to perform mental feats that brought about a change in personality and/or awareness of the subconcious, just like any other deep psychology psychotherapy.

 

[der_kluge]

as a general rule I don't believe in supernatural abilities, that being said. I have dreams that come true. Not I dream of winning the lottery, or I can see visions of others or anything like that. Its simply that sometimes I see myself in a dream, captured in an instant of time, and then sometime later on down the road that instant happens. Everything is the same, people are wearing the same clothes, we are having the same conversation in the same place, eating the same food, at the same time of day. These dreams always feel different from other dreams.

I think subconciously I do something to make these dreams come true, but it does not explain why others in my dream are behaving as they did in the dream in real life.

Like I said I don't believe in the supernatural, I just don't have a rational explanation at this time.

Thullgrim

My wife has mentioned before that this happens to her a lot. And it's always very mundane things. Like, a conversation with a checkout clerk, or something equally meaningless.

FWIW, it's called "preja vu"

 

[MerakSpielman]

Take your two groups of people. One does a love spell, or a money spell, or a fireball...the other does not. To the extent that Group A generates the desired result of love/money/fireball and Group B does not, we might have made magic [although maybe other explanations involving currently understood scientific principles could exist]

Sometimes things behave differently when they're being observed and measured. Magic (I'll stubbernly not spell it with a K just because I'm... well... stubbern) is not meant to work unless all the people who know about the spell are active participants. The belief should not be diluted.

It should also be noted that most practitioners of RL magic and spellwork (with some exceptions, granted) could care less if people think they're full of nonsense. They aren't out to convice people of the truth or reality of what they do. The fact that they encounter skeptics in no way drives them to dispel that disbelief. The fact that the results of what they do can't be objectively proven to actually be the results of what they do means nothing to them.

 

[BryonD]

Why would you expect something subjective to be proven or demonstrated by objective standards? As Crowley put it, Magick has no objective reality or philosophical validity... just by doing certain things, certain other things occur. That's all.

Why? Well, I guess that is subjective, so why would you question it?





When it is claimed that certain thing will occur then it becomes OBJECTIVE that it either happens as claimed or not.

IF magick is restricted to only entirely subjective results, then it is ultimately meaningless to the world at large and only applicable to those who believe it. This is known as delusion.

 

[MerakSpielman]

IF magick is restricted to only entirely subjective results, then it is ultimately meaningless to the world at large and only applicable to those who believe it. This is known as delusion.

You've just described the underlying principals of most religions... or at least, how they percieve other religions.

 

[kenjib]

Prayer is very similar in it's underlying form to wiccan magic. File off the serial numbers, change the names and ritual details...

 

[pensiv]

IF magick is restricted to only entirely subjective results, then it is ultimately meaningless to the world at large and only applicable to those who believe it. This is known as delusion.

That is the same as saying that Medicine and Psychology are meaningless delusions because they only benefit the patients.