How many people here do actual magic? How do you do it?

[MerakSpielman]

That is the same as saying that Medicine and Psychology are meaningless delusions because they only benefit the patients.

I'm not on his side, but you know that's not a fair comparison. The results of medical science are observable and testable to everybody who wants to check. He has a problem with the fact that this is not necessarily the case with magic.

 

[pensiv]

There are observable results with magic, just the same as there are observable results with other forms of psychotherapy.

EDIT: I'm trying to be brief in my replies since I know this is a high-traffic time and a lot of people are making posts here in a short time.

 

[Faraer]

Magic is a way of thinking, in terms of symbolic correspondences rather than rational linear causation. Although art is now dominantly in a secular cultural context, art and magic are indivisible, as recognized by artists such as William Burroughs, Ted Hughes, Derek Jarman, Iain Sinclair, Alan Moore... as Jan Svankmajer said, 'Surrealism is an attempt to put the magic dimension back into art. Art which does not have this correspondence with magic is without any use.' No one who doesn't practise magical thinking will understand premodern people, or modern people, and certainly not be able to achieve manifest magical 'effects'.

 

[pensiv]

I want to pat Faraer here on the back for bringing up what I think is the most important thought on the subject.

EDIT: Tyler Do'Urden, I have a question for you and would appreciate it if you would email me. omokage at omokage dot com, real simple address.

 

[MerakSpielman]

There are observable results with magic, just the same as there are observable results with other forms of psychotherapy.

This is a form of magic that most people can easily accept becuase it's just a different way of doing things that can also be done using modern psyotheripudic techniques.

A classic example is a weight loss ring. A Wiccan performs a ritual, blessing a ring with the power to make them lose weight.

Two months later they have lost weight.

Perhaps it is because every time they reached for unhealthy food they saw the magic weight loss ring and were reminded that they shouldn't eat it.

That is psychotherapy. It is easily tested, observed, and proven.

Most magic practioners and Wiccans believe there is much more to what they do then psycological manipulation, however.

 

[BryonD]

You've just described the underlying principals of most religions... or at least, how they percieve other religions.

correct

 

[BryonD]

That is the same as saying that Medicine and Psychology are meaningless delusions because they only benefit the patients.

Um, not even slightly the same.

The difference between objective and subjective is vast.

 

[pensiv]

Most magic practioners and Wiccans believe there is much more to what they do then psycological[sic] manipulation, however.

I feel my earliest post to this thread illustrates my stance on this issue.

Um, not even slightly the same.

The difference between objective and subjective is vast.

I argue that the fact that there are results is objective, but the level of success of the exercise is subjective. The same goes for many practices of medicine.

 

[MerakSpielman]

You just had to put the "[sic]" in there, didn't you?

 

[JPL]

Look, if all we're talking about is magic as a way to generate mental/psychological/spiritual changes in one's self [or other impressionable folk] or experience an altered state of consciousness...then sure, that's real, it works for a lot of people, and it doesn't matter if you call it Wicca or Jung or whatever.

If we mean magic = the cheat codes of the universe, or a method of affecting reality via appeals to occult beings or manipulation of hidden forces...that's something else altogether.

As with mainstream religion, it's probably easy to blur the two.

Issac Bonewits, by the way, strikes me as a smug jerk who loves to slander mainstream religion, has little or no interest in being an objective scholar of ANY discipline, and has written a book that confuses RPGs and his own belief system in a way that makes all gamers look crazy.