WotC How much does Hasbro / WotC impact your feelings towards D&D?

How much does Hasbro / WotC impact your feelings towards D&D?

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    Votes: 45 16.1%
  • 4

    Votes: 23 8.2%
  • 3

    Votes: 40 14.3%
  • 2

    Votes: 52 18.6%
  • 1

    Votes: 120 42.9%

With respect, a mom-and-pop pizza place is a "big corporate thing" relative to the RPG scene. Other than Hasbro/WotC, nobody in the business is a big company, and they don't have the resources to really get into the shenanigans that we'd be concerned about from "big business".
Would you call mom & pops pizza place anything comparable in size to Kickstarter, WotC's D&DBeyond or the DriveThruRPG (and its subsidiaries) + Roll20 combo? Because each of those is a chokepoint in current rpg market.

You think WOTC is Netflix. No. WOTC is RealNetworks or one of the other very early companies.
And you claim that because?

But still, the idea "This will be so awesome people will want it and will be willing to pay more and more for it and others will copy it but none of them will be as awesome as this one" as being a "problem" is a pretty absurd position in my opinion. Are you really saying we shouldn't have 20-30 years of awesome because in 2045 they might charge more than you'd be happy with? You think think this is a compelling argument and we should instead be happy with worse quality products to reduce the chances the awesome thing will eventually beat the competition?
I don't see anything awesome into being pressured (by everyone else using it) to switch to a poorly-designed site that can proved it crash and make people dependent on it unable to play, where every little stupid thing is behind a paywall, and now is trying to pressure people into using a horrible vtt that will likely murder my computer and become permament barier of entry for people with worse hardware.
 

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TheSword

Legend
I don't see anything awesome into being pressured (by everyone else using it) to switch to a poorly-designed site that can proved it crash and make people dependent on it unable to play, where every little stupid thing is behind a paywall, and now is trying to pressure people into using a horrible vtt that will likely murder my computer and become permament barier of entry for people with worse hardware.
So don’t use it. Carry on with Roll20 or Foundry, or Owlbear Rodeo or any of the multiple alternatives. A VTT doesn’t require proprietary tech. If you don’t think the system will be good then freedom of choice let’s you support another one.

I use foundry the most because it’s best for WFRP. I use Roll20 when I want to play beyond.

Don’t forget all the big companies have their own gaming online stores. WotC don’t control access to TTRPG products. Not even their own since they put it into the Creative Commons.
 
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I think the single biggest difference is that in the case of the YouTube, Facebook, Amazon, Ticketmaster etc they aren’t actually providing anything themselves. They don’t contribute - the only path is through other creators.

Whereas in the case of WotC they are looking at more than just hosting a platform for other people’s work. They are actively contributing themselves. I can’t ever see a point at which WotC just becomes a VTT hosting service and not a publishing company. It’s the same reason that DM Guild isn’t a choke point because those that take part get access to IP they wouldn’t otherwise get. In the same way NetfliX aren’t a chokepoint when they give a production company 5mil to produce a series.
WotC sure contributed by buying off D&DBeyond someone else created, same way Elon Musk founded Tesla by buying it off, firing real founders and then blowing tons of money on telling everyone it's his creation.

And yes, by definition, both DRiveThruRpg (which DMs Guild is part of) and Netflix are chokepoints - they control the means through which the creators (rpg publishers, movie makers) deliver their product to the customers, which gives them control over the product and customer experience.

The second reason that I think it’s premature to worry is that there isn’t one single VTT company. Beyond, Roll20, Foundry, Fantasy Grounds, Owlbear and they are just the best known ones. All in a very small
niche industry. Most of these were produced as start ups by independents and compete effectively. Now maybe Sigil will be so amazing that it will blow us all away and it will be the only sensible way of playing the game. I’m sceptical that any VTT can turn into the YouTube of VTT, because Gamers want wildly different things from their VTT.
Netflix also supposedly has competition, but most is either struggling or became money sink for biggest companies, while Netflix jacks up prices because they know people have nowhere to go. Sadly WotC doesn't need to make good product to put other VTTs out of business, it just needs to make POPULAR product.
Thirdly. WotC seem to pull back really hard on anything that whiffs of negativity the moment they’re challenged on it. It was 2 weeks from the OGL leak to them doing a complete 180. I don’t believe that was just down to beyond subscriptions dropping. I genuinely do think they care about their reputation within the community at large. Otherwise we wouldn’t see the continued voluntary release of free rule systems.
Chokepoints are more "boil the frog" projects, they lure people into false sense of security, ensure everyone they need it and then, once people are too dependent to leave, begins shady business practices
I ask this because you seem to be arguing in this post, and in prior posts, that WotC making a good product is bad. Does that mean that WotC making a bad product is best for consumers? Or is WotC making any product bad? Is WotC just not able to compete, in your view, without causing issues?
but WotC is not making a good product, they bought a mediocre product and add to it a bloated hardware-based barrier of entry and is now trying to use them to control how the fans interact with the hobby and with third party publishers.
The problem here is that this requires two parties to agree to the terms to begin with. And every third party on DNDBeyond has other methods of selling their product. But because it is, hypothetically, possible that this happens, WotC shouldn't pursue making better products?
You do realize that companies need from time to time renegotiate their contracts, right? What if this new model blows out so much, that it becomes substantial source of Kbold Press' income? And THEN WotC wil renegotiate the deal in a way that forces KP to close their own store? When KP is no longer in position where they can defy WotC demands without taking substantial, possibly leathal, hit?
 

So don’t use it. Carry on with Roll20 or Foundry, or Owlbear Rodeo or any of the multiple alternatives. A VTT doesn’t require propriety tech. If you don’t think the system will be good then freedom of choice let’s you support another one.

I use foundry the most because it’s best for WFRP. I use Roll20 when I want to play beyond.

Don’t forget all the big companies have their own gaming online stores. WotC don’t control access to TTRPG products. Not even their own since they put it into the Creative Commons.
The thing is, if D&DBeyond becomes, as WotC wants, default way to play d&d, it may put a social pressure to use it if you want to play with people. That is also part of chokepoint's function - become so ubiqitous that not utilizing it means soft social exclusion, as you are put in position where you miss out on doing things with other people.
 


Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I don't see anything awesome into being pressured (by everyone else using it) to switch to a poorly-designed site that can proved it crash and make people dependent on it unable to play, where every little stupid thing is behind a paywall, and now is trying to pressure people into using a horrible vtt that will likely murder my computer and become permament barier of entry for people with worse hardware.

So this comes down to you don't like it but your friends do, and your friends are pressuring you to use it and use the VTT that is coming.

That's not WOTC's issue. WOTC isn't pressuring you at all they're just making the best product they know how to make in hopes it will sell well. They're also making hardcopy books and promoting in store play strongly so you and your friends don't need to use it to play the game.

It's your friends who are pressuring you. That's an issue. And taking it out of WOTC because WOTC made a product your friends like more than you do isn't WOTC's fault.
 

DinoInDisguise

A russian spy disguised as a t-rex.
but WotC is not making a good product, they bought a mediocre product and add to it a bloated hardware-based barrier of entry and is now trying to use them to control how the fans interact with the hobby and with third party publishers.

So what is the problem? It would be worse for your hypothetical if they did make a good product. So if a bad product causes this, and a good one would be even worse, what is WotC to do?


You do realize that companies need from time to time renegotiate their contracts, right? What if this new model blows out so much, that it becomes substantial source of Kbold Press' income? And THEN WotC wil renegotiate the deal in a way that forces KP to close their own store? When KP is no longer in position where they can defy WotC demands without taking substantial, possibly leathal, hit?

So my question remains. What do you want from WotC? It seems like your only solution, at least that makes sense, would be for WotC to just not have DnDBeyond. Just not compete in that side of the hobby. Or maybe charity, do it all out of charity, which is the same thing.

It seems like prosecuting WotC for a crime they haven't committed, because one day they might.
 

SteveC

Doing the best imitation of myself
The D&D Beyond issue comes down to DM preference. As long as the material is available, the VTT you use is whatever your DM wants to do. As long as I can play the game via Foundry, that's what I'm going to DM. My fellow DMs are running on Roll20 and we'll keep doing that if given the choice.

Do I want material from the DM's Guild that's only easily available on D&D Beyond? Well, I haven't had a need for it so far, so there would have to be a change to make that happen.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Because each of those is a chokepoint in current rpg market.

No they aren't a chokepoint.

For Kickstarter, there's the alternative in Backerkit.

There are retail outlets - your FLGS. Bookstores. Noble Knight Games. Amazon.

And these days, e-commerce is not all that difficult. Paizo, Monte Cook, Pinnacle, Evil Hat, Magpie, Modiphius, Chaosium - all have their own storefonts! They are not "choked" - you can buy direct from them, no middleman.

There's individual creators out there on Patreon where you can get their wares.

How many ways around the chokepoint do we need to show before we recognize it isn't really a chokepoint?
 


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