How much effect on ECL should Fast Healing have?

[Jeph]

Why are we all assuming that regen/FH scale directly with level? Many of the posts on this thread have stated, hypothesized, or presented evidance on the contrary. So I suggest this:

ECL/CR mod = [?Fast Healing or (Regen + 2)]
Round to the nearest half for resultant CRs below 1, or round up to the nearest whole number for all ECLs and resultant CRs above 1.

This definitely isn't perfect, but works better than ECL = (FH or Regen) / 2 or 5, IMHO. For instance, a regen 10 creature would be +3 or 4 ECL, and a Regen 50 would only be +7.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Can't we all just get along...?

Hi Jarval mate!

With normal feats, I agree with you. However, epic feats are, by their very nature, much more powerful. They can easily (IMO) add up to at least +1 ECL

I must disagree. Philisophically WotC will have tried to balance all the Feats (including Epic Feats). Naturally this is not going to be exact; and in some cases 'Feat Chains' (and Feat Prerequisites) are applied to certain Feats.

eg. The powerful 'Devastating Critical' Feat requires 6 Feat Prereq.s and Strength 25.

However I would argue that even that Feat is worth less than +1 ECL.

But an ability that has little effect when used by NPCs and monsters can have a sizeable effect when given to PCs. Even at Epic levels, Fast Healing negates the need for post-battle healing. This can save a huge amount of PC resources over time.

So the character in question relies slightly less on the party priest (if any). At epic levels its going to be near impossible to deplete a party's resources (even fractionally) anyway.

But again, these differences would be far more significant to PCs than NPCs. Would you really give a PC a +1 ECL ability that meant they couldn't be killed by most weapons (as regeneration does)?

Looking at this from a different angle, a Ring of Regeneration only gives you the equivalent of Regeneration 1/600, but cost 90,000 gp. That's the same as a weapon with a +7 bonus, +9 armor, +6 to three different ability scores, or a Mantle of Spell Resistance.

That Ring of Regeneration is a very poorly designed item. I don't think its balanced well at all, they should have made it something like Fast Healing 5.

I think WotC were frightened of regeneration to some extent. Probably the thought of applying it to those immune to subdual damage.

I agree with you here. A lot of abilities become much less powerful at high to epic levels than at lower levels. It's going to take quite an ECL system to remove this.

Its a simple matter to modify some of the abilities (ie. regeneration) for PCs.

 

[Jarval]

Re: Re: Can't we all just get along...?

I must disagree. Philisophically WotC will have tried to balance all the Feats (including Epic Feats). Naturally this is not going to be exact; and in some cases 'Feat Chains' (and Feat Prerequisites) are applied to certain Feats.

eg. The powerful 'Devastating Critical' Feat requires 6 Feat Prereq.s and Strength 25.

However I would argue that even that Feat is worth less than +1 ECL.

Maybe you're right. On reflection, taking prerequisites, feats don't have that much effect on ECL. The epic feats still strike me as being rather more powerful than their standard counterparts, but I think power increases rather quicker at epic levels anyway.

So the character in question relies slightly less on the party priest (if any). At epic levels its going to be near impossible to deplete a party's resources (even fractionally) anyway.

This is true at epic levels, but at low to mid levels this is quite an advantage. But like everyone in this thread seems to be saying, it's very hard to balance an ability at both high and low levels.

That Ring of Regeneration is a very poorly designed item. I don't think its balanced well at all, they should have made it something like Fast Healing 5.

I think WotC were frightened of regeneration to some extent. Probably the thought of applying it to those immune to subdual damage.

Sounds like there may be a great deal of truth in that. Just out of interest, are there any items that give Fast Healing?

Its a simple matter to modify some of the abilities (ie. regeneration) for PCs.

So how would you go about modifying them? I've always been a little leery of regeneration and the like, but if there's a way of balancing them for PCs, I'm interested

Keep up the good work U_K. I may not agree with all your rules and reasoning, but you're putting together a very interesting system.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

Hey, UK!

Actually no. While I have discussed the problems inherant in these particular rules (often as part of 4th Edition commentaries) I have never officially advocated changing them within the d20 System - to do so simply snowballs the number of changes you have to make.

In that case, I retract what I said - having not seen the IH, I could only guess at its contents by what you post here!

Its true I don't agree with a number of WotCs CRs/ECLs.

That, alone, is a good thing. Dragons are underrated, as are a number of other creatures; some are overrated, as well. What I'm really concerned with is the general CRs and ECLs: will the assumptions of the IH with regard to CRs and ECLs be generally the same as the MM/MM2/ELH, with specific exceptions, or notably different?

I can't answer this question without knowing more about your book. Will a creature listed as "CR X" in the IH be comparable in power to a creature listed as "CR X" in the ELH? What major exceptions, if any, are there in power between ELH/IH creatures of the same CR?

No other d20 material even attempts to explain the necessary Challenge Ratings (in this case Gods; Divinity). When I came to detail them it was obvious the current rules noticeably breakdown the higher above 20th-level you ascend - a point I have proven in the past as fact.

This is the kind of statement that makes me worry about the system. If you claim that CRs past 20 begin to break down, but your system fixes it, will it still be on the same power curve as the ELH and related material?

That in itself is okay mate...

Not really. I'd be deprived of *the* book for immortal play! I liked D&Dg (mostly for the pictures ), but the IH should be much better from what I've seen.

however, it seems you have a number of misconceptions as to the content and nature of my work - in part I must obviously be to blame for such confusion.

I think we've nearly cleared these up. Good luck, in any case!

 

[Anubis]

That, alone, is a good thing. Dragons are underrated, as are a number of other creatures; some are overrated, as well. What I'm really concerned with is the general CRs and ECLs: will the assumptions of the IH with regard to CRs and ECLs be generally the same as the MM/MM2/ELH, with specific exceptions, or notably different?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and try to answer this . . . Most of the MM is accurate; demons, devils, dragons, and celestials present the most problems, along with titans and Tarrasque. The others are pretty much okay.

As for the ELH, however, I think I can say with 90% certainty that few, if any, of the listed CRs are correct.

I can't answer this question without knowing more about your book. Will a creature listed as "CR X" in the IH be comparable in power to a creature listed as "CR X" in the ELH? What major exceptions, if any, are there in power between ELH/IH creatures of the same CR?

First you must remember that the ELH goes on the base system of 4 PCs of Level X should face CR X. This system changes that by basing CR for PCs AND monsters on ECL. That is the major change.

By the core system and the system in the ELH, a CR 40 creature should be a challenge for four Level 40 PCs. By the revised system, however, a CR 40 creature is a challenge for a CR 40 party, which is a party of four PCs of Levels 80-87. Check out Asgard 6 or my revised ECL thread for details.

UK and I have very similar systems, for good reason, because all the work has been done together here in the forums.

This is the kind of statement that makes me worry about the system. If you claim that CRs past 20 begin to break down, but your system fixes it, will it still be on the same power curve as the ELH and related material?

A firm no here. The curve by the book is linear. The curve of the new system flattens out gradually. In the core system, Level 1 is CR 1, Level 20 is CR 20, Level 40 is CR 40. By the new system, Level 1 is CR 1, Level 20 is CR 20, Level 40 is CR 30. And so on and so forth.

Look, I'm sorry if I come off as a bit brash sometimes, but unlike UK, I get frustrated when hard work that has already pretty much been finalized gets called "the stupidest thing I've ever heard" by someone who hasn't even tested it. (I know that wasn't you, but you're in that general group.)

Unlike UK, however, I am starting to believe that the new system can't work at lower levels. Personally, in the MM, I would only use it for celestials, demons, devils, dragons, and other such powerful creatures that are severely underestimated. Everything in the ELH is subject to mutilation, however.

How they rate Devastation Vermin over the Xixical is beyond me . . .

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Can't we all just get along...?

Hi Jarval mate!

Maybe you're right. On reflection, taking prerequisites, feats don't have that much effect on ECL. The epic feats still strike me as being rather more powerful than their standard counterparts, but I think power increases rather quicker at epic levels anyway.

With the proliferation of 'one-hit kill' spells and items at epic levels the boundaries of what constitutes an epic power or attempts to balance them are somewhat blurred.

This is true at epic levels, but at low to mid levels this is quite an advantage. But like everyone in this thread seems to be saying, it's very hard to balance an ability at both high and low levels.

Its difficult, but not impossible.

Sounds like there may be a great deal of truth in that. Just out of interest, are there any items that give Fast Healing?

Rapid Healing Ring in the ELH (gives you the Fast Healing Feat for 300,000gp).

However you can have a Vorpal Weapon for much less than that and gain it as an epic feat. So that really puts fast healing into perspective.

So how would you go about modifying them? I've always been a little leery of regeneration and the like, but if there's a way of balancing them for PCs, I'm interested

I think its easy to use an example set by WotC. If you notice some Templates have a variable modifier depending on how powerful the base creature is - its easy to apply something similar to this system (though epic characters or monsters would be the de facto standard).

Keep up the good work U_K.

I'll try; thanks for the encouragement mate!

I may not agree with all your rules and reasoning, but you're putting together a very interesting system.

Hey, if anyone has any questions/feedback about my rules or reasoning I am always happy to respond/listen.

 

[CRGreathouse]

(answered out of order)

Look, I'm sorry if I come off as a bit brash sometimes, but unlike UK, I get frustrated when hard work that has already pretty much been finalized gets called "the stupidest thing I've ever heard" by someone who hasn't even tested it. (I know that wasn't you, but you're in that general group.)

Yeah, and I blew my top a while back. Sorry.

As to my opinions of the system: It's a good general system, but (1) there are minor mistakes in the ECL system (most of which you've cleaned out), and (2) the CR/ECL system.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and try to answer this . . . Most of the MM is accurate; demons, devils, dragons, and celestials present the most problems, along with titans and Tarrasque. The others are pretty much okay.

Good so far. What new CRs would you assign to these creatures, out of curiosity?

First you must remember that the ELH goes on the base system of 4 PCs of Level X should face CR X. This system changes that by basing CR for PCs AND monsters on ECL. That is the major change.

By the core system and the system in the ELH, a CR 40 creature should be a challenge for four Level 40 PCs. By the revised system, however, a CR 40 creature is a challenge for a CR 40 party, which is a party of four PCs of Levels 80-87. Check out Asgard 6 or my revised ECL thread for details.

I'm quite familliar with the system. Here's what I want to know: Would a creature in Upper_Krust's system with a CR designed to make it a challenge to level X creatures be comparable in power to an ELH CR X?

Frankly, I don't care (here) about what goes on under the hood. I care that a person can use the IH as-is with existing epic CRs, or with a little work with the IH's CR/ECL rules.

(If I may impose: I'd like to see a response from Annubis and U_K, if possible; this is an important question!)

A firm no here. The curve by the book is linear. The curve of the new system flattens out gradually. In the core system, Level 1 is CR 1, Level 20 is CR 20, Level 40 is CR 40. By the new system, Level 1 is CR 1, Level 20 is CR 20, Level 40 is CR 30. And so on and so forth.

Again, I don't care about under-the-hood work - is a creature designed to challenge level X comparable with CR X from the ELH?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey, UK!

Hiya CR mate!

In that case, I retract what I said - having not seen the IH, I could only guess at its contents by what you post here!

Thats okay; it was an honest mistake mate. With so many different threads and posts even I get confused more often than not!

That, alone, is a good thing. Dragons are underrated, as are a number of other creatures; some are overrated, as well. What I'm really concerned with is the general CRs and ECLs: will the assumptions of the IH with regard to CRs and ECLs be generally the same as the MM/MM2/ELH, with specific exceptions, or notably different?

Well, as I see it; two wrongs don't make a right.

Some of the Monster Manual Challenge Ratings are blatantly flawed (that much is fact); some of the Epic Monsters are incorrectly assessed (in my opinion) as well.

The power of characters and monsters (rated in terms of their effective level; ECL) impacts less and less on Challenge Rating the higher you ascend.

So a party of 40th-level characters can still challenge a 60th-level opponent.

But to make that work within the Experience Points/Challenge Rating System you have to modify the CR at high levels.

Therefore a 60th-level character is CR35 and the party average CR30.

In my opinion the Phaethon is about ECL62 (at a quick glance). Therefore its also CR35.

I can't answer this question without knowing more about your book. Will a creature listed as "CR X" in the IH be comparable in power to a creature listed as "CR X" in the ELH? What major exceptions, if any, are there in power between ELH/IH creatures of the same CR?

Challenge Rating has to be modified for the party as well. Other than that it works the same.

This is the kind of statement that makes me worry about the system. If you claim that CRs past 20 begin to break down, but your system fixes it, will it still be on the same power curve as the ELH and related material?

It will be the same power curve between characters and monsters because I rate them all the same way.

Not really. I'd be deprived of *the* book for immortal play! I liked D&Dg (mostly for the pictures ), but the IH should be much better from what I've seen.

I am confident (if also biased) that it will be better than Deities & Demigods...although I am not so certain the illustrations will be as good!?

I think we've nearly cleared these up. Good luck, in any case!

Thanks mate!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Yeah, and I blew my top a while back. Sorry.

Get a room you guys!

I'm quite familliar with the system. Here's what I want to know: Would a creature in Upper_Krust's system with a CR designed to make it a challenge to level X creatures be comparable in power to an ELH CR X?

Frankly, I don't care (here) about what goes on under the hood. I care that a person can use the IH as-is with existing epic CRs, or with a little work with the IH's CR/ECL rules.

(If I may impose: I'd like to see a response from Annubis and U_K, if possible; this is an important question!)

You can still use the CRs from the ELH (for the most part*) - though I suggest you still modify the PCs (using the CR modifier for high levels).

eg. You could still use the Phaethons CR34 (as per the ELH) but if the party are 34th-level (average) they are CR27.

*A few of the ELH monsters however, won't work like this: notably the Hecatonchiere; Xixecal; Hunefer; Devastation Vermin and the Epic Dragons. Most of the others are close enough to use without causing too many problems.

So basically its the same situation as the Monster Manual. For the most part the CRs won't cause you any problems; with a few notable exceptions: Solars; Dragons; the Tarrasque.

 

[Anubis]

UK said it all, for the most part. I don't trust the ELH numbers as much as he does, but then again, we do still disagree on some points.