How Much is That Fighter in the Window?

[Hella_Tellah]

DM's need to flex thier muscles a bit, read the rules, and do thier job. If you don't take the lazy way out, and actually PLAY npc's then you won't have an issue.

What should those rules be? I think they need to be reformed a bit, so DMs will have a useful guideline for determining what will disrupt the game.

 

[I'm A Banana]

What ever happened to characters aspiring to owning thier own castle, or starting a monostary?

Well, they still can and do, but most of those went away when the game realized it didn't have the pagecount to put in good political barony rules.

In BOTH cases, its up to you DM to regulate and PLAY those followers/cohorts/hirelings.

And most of the time, if those things are in combat with you, it's boring to sit around while they do their thing.

Last time I checked, just about every wild animal on earth flees at the sight of approaching humans.

Two things. First, what use is a power if the DM doesn't let you use it? Second, the fantasy world (let alone a world as magical as most D&D worlds) is not one where you can assume that animals won't approach a town, especially given the presence of one of their close friends (the druid).

DM's need to flex thier muscles a bit, read the rules, and do thier job. If you don't take the lazy way out, and actually PLAY npc's then you won't have an issue

It strikes me that your point is more about telling players when they CAN'T play NPC's. And I fail to see a big difference between that and just not having them.

 

[Aloïsius]

Me think there should not be any rules at all for things like followers. Roleplay it, dammit ! Sometime, even a commoner should be able to lead an army. But if he does not lead it right, he won't lead it long...
Same thing for mercenary and other hirelings : wanna some ? Pay them ! And, if you pay them 1SP per day while exposing them to danger and keeping thousands of GP after each dungeon for yourself, no surprise if they revolt or betray you.
I think using rules for what could be story is not a good idea.


Now, familar, mounts and animal companions are something else, because those beings are not autonomous.

 

[Scribble]

Me think there should not be any rules at all for things like followers. Roleplay it, dammit ! Sometime, even a commoner should be able to lead an army. But if he does not lead it right, he won't lead it long...
Same thing for mercenary and other hirelings : wanna some ? Pay them ! And, if you pay them 1SP per day while exposing them to danger and keeping thousands of GP after each dungeon for yourself, no surprise if they revolt or betray you.
I think using rules for what could be story is not a good idea.


Now, familar, mounts and animal companions are something else, because those beings are not autonomous.

What about stuff like sidekicks, and squires, and just dudes that really think you're awesome.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

Me think there should not be any rules at all for things like followers. Roleplay it, dammit ! Sometime, even a commoner should be able to lead an army. But if he does not lead it right, he won't lead it long...
Same thing for mercenary and other hirelings : wanna some ? Pay them ! And, if you pay them 1SP per day while exposing them to danger and keeping thousands of GP after each dungeon for yourself, no surprise if they revolt or betray you.
I think using rules for what could be story is not a good idea.


Now, familar, mounts and animal companions are something else, because those beings are not autonomous.

Shouldn't there be some guidelines for how much mercenaries and hirelings are paid before they'll betray you, though? I can't think of a single game I've played that didn't involve hiring at least one NPC adventurer to fill a gap in the party, and in each case there's been a mad hunt for some sort of guideline for doing so in a balanced way. How much is an 8th-level bodyguard worth? More than a shield? Less than a +2 vorpal greatsword? I can see the point that it's a complex subject rife with potential for on-the-spot adjustments, but I think the game would benefit from a baseline mechanic the DM could compare his rulings against.

 

[Ilium]

Me think there should not be any rules at all for things like followers. Roleplay it, dammit ! Sometime, even a commoner should be able to lead an army. But if he does not lead it right, he won't lead it long...
Same thing for mercenary and other hirelings : wanna some ? Pay them ! And, if you pay them 1SP per day while exposing them to danger and keeping thousands of GP after each dungeon for yourself, no surprise if they revolt or betray you.
I think using rules for what could be story is not a good idea.


Now, familar, mounts and animal companions are something else, because those beings are not autonomous.

It's fine to say "roleplay it," but then you give your own example of where some guidance could be useful. You can't pay hirelings 1SP per day and expect them to face danger. Fair enough. But how much should you pay them? And how much should you pay that level 6 rogue?

Rather than throwing arbitrary numbers around maybe we could base it off the expected wealth by level table. I don't have my books here, so I'll make up numbers as an example.

Say a level 5 NPC is expected to have about 1000 GP in wealth (I know that's wrong, but work with me). So maybe he should expect 1% of that value daily, with an additional 1% on any day he faces danger. That's in addition to room and board, of course.

Is that reasonable? Does it scale? Does anybody have the books so we can use more real numbers?

 

[LostSoul]

Sigh....

You guys depress me. What ever happened to characters aspiring to owning thier own castle, or starting a monostary? In second edition these things were intregrated into the base character class. 3rd edition implemented it as a feat. In BOTH cases, its up to you DM to regulate and PLAY those followers/cohorts/hirelings. The PC can ask them to do something, but its the dm's decision if they actually DO them. To omany dm's just gave total control over to thier players, and once that happens the followers lose free will.

In other words:

Game the DM, not the system!

 

[gothmaugCC]

Every edition has had base guidelines for how much it would cost to hire a commoner, expert, lvl 1 mercenary, lvl 5 merc, etc. And the DMG has always had a few guidelines for people to expand upon.

But thats just it, they are guidelines! Why does everything have to be spelled out and spooned to us nowadays? 3rd edition quantified everything, and by doing so, some of the "magic" was lost from the game. Look how long it takes to run a simple combat in 3rd edition, and 4th doesnt look much better. The DM's job is to ad lib, to keep the game flowing, to work with his PC's to provide the best experience out there. And yes, sometimes you end up restricting a players choice, but if youdo they should understand why. Followers, cohorts, and even familiars are NPC's. They are not a second character for a player to have and run. If you run your games that way, thats fine too. personally I like to reserve the right for Joe the Cohort to say "no" once in a while. THey are supposed to be your freinds and allies, not your own personal expendable slave you gained just because you took a feat.

I agree with Aloïsius. Break out of the box a bit, use your imagination. ALL the rules, every single teeny itsy bitsy one is simply a guideline. Use what you want, discard the rest. Its your game after all.

 

[Driddle]

Sigh....

You guys depress me. What ever happened to characters aspiring to owning thier own castle, or starting a monastary?...

The difference is that now when you leave the game at the end of the night, some other user is going to swoop in and take all your stuff.

??? We're talking about online multiplayer games, right?

 

[Hella_Tellah]

Every edition has had base guidelines for how much it would cost to hire a commoner, expert, lvl 1 mercenary, lvl 5 merc, etc. And the DMG has always had a few guidelines for people to expand upon.

Could you point me to those guidelines in 3rd edition? There are some wonky rules in the DMG II, but that's all I've seen. All 3rd edition gives us is the price for unskilled laborers, which doesn't really cover mercenaries with class levels.