How Much Ore For A Sword?

[Water Bob]

I've got a question that I need answered for my campaign. If you don't already know from my other posts, I'm running a 3.5 based CONAN RPG campaign centering around a clan of Cimmerians. The clan chieftain is a master smith, but the clan does not mine for quality ore. Instead, it trades finished goods for raw ore with neighboring clans and peoples.

So, my question is: How long would a single wagon load of ore last at a small village forge run by two smiths and an apprentice?

I'm trying to figure out how often they would need to be re-supplied.

 

[Stormonu]

That depends on a lot of factors:

- How big is the wagon? (Raw ore can be pretty heavy; too big a load and it becomes infeasible to have enough beasts of burden to pull the thing, you risk breaking the axle or luring thieves/bandits/brigands)
- How pure is the ore? (as above, the less pure the metal, the more raw ore you need to make a given item)
- How fast can the smiths and apprentice work? (obviously, the clan chieftain can't dedicate all his time to making weapons
- What are they making? (In a given town, people will need metal supplies - plowshares, pitchforks, horseshoes, etc. That will take away somewhat from the time of making goods to be exported. If they are only making weapons and/or armor, there's a risk someone will come along and want them shut down [i.e., the enemy of whomever they are supplying])
- What is the quality of the goods? (Masterwork items take longer to make than putting out dross stuff)
- How fast can they sell the stuff? (This is as big an influence as how long it takes to make the stuff. You have to pay for the next shipment, after all).

Just at a rough guess, for a small town I'd say "one wagonload" would be enough to last at least a month.

BTW, you might find this interesting, as it gives you an idea how long it can take to make one "masterwork" sword.

[video=youtube;nXbLyVpWsVM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXbLyVpWsVM[/video]

 

[Water Bob]

That depends on a lot of factors:

Good questions, all.

I'm thinking in general terms without delving into too many specifics. But, let me answer your questions.

- How big is the wagon? (Raw ore can be pretty heavy; too big a load and it becomes infeasible to have enough beasts of burden to pull the thing, you risk breaking the axle or luring thieves/bandits/brigands)

Standard size wagon, pulled by two horses/mules/oxen that we normally think of. Like a settelers wagon in the Old West. I know that there are different lengths, irl.

- How pure is the ore? (as above, the less pure the metal, the more raw ore you need to make a given item)

I've established, in the game, that the Cimmerians trade with the Aesir across the mountains, and the ore the Aesirmen provide them is the best that they've seen. I'd say it's pretty good ore--probably not the best ever to exist, but good ore for smelting steel.

- How fast can the smiths and apprentice work? (obviously, the clan chieftain can't dedicate all his time to making weapons

The forge is small-ish. A smith and an assitant are comfortable. Anyting more, and it's a crowd. Sure, the chieftain doen't use the forge all the time, but the other smith does--it's his primary job.

I think the work load is "comfortable". There's probably long breaks--maybe even the winter season--with nothing to forge or fix. Then, some trading order comes in, or a clansman needs nails, or something of the kind, and the forge is busy again.

- What are they making? (In a given town, people will need metal supplies - plowshares, pitchforks, horseshoes, etc. That will take away somewhat from the time of making goods to be exported. If they are only making weapons and/or armor, there's a risk someone will come along and want them shut down [i.e., the enemy of whomever they are supplying])

No armor. All the metal needs for the clan. The clan is made up of 336 men, women, and children, diversified in age as you would expect. Plus, there is some sporatic trading with neighboring clans. And, the clan pays for its ore by trading finished goods. Sometimes ore will be dropped off with orders for the traders' needs. When the Aseir traders return, they pick up their "payment".

- What is the quality of the goods? (Masterwork items take longer to make than putting out dross stuff)

I'd say rarely is something Mastersmithed. Standard, no frills, but solid and servicable is the Cimmerian way.

- How fast can they sell the stuff? (This is as big an influence as how long it takes to make the stuff. You have to pay for the next shipment, after all).

It's sproratic and unpredictable, but definitely not constant.



I have established in the game that good ore is rare, and steel is more valuable than just about anything else. Because it's practical. You can use it to put food on the table or defend you and yours from the savage prowlers of rugged Cimmeria.

This rarity is probably not because there aren't enough smiths but because there is rarely enough premium ore to use.

 

[Derren]

According to some internet search the theoretical yield of 1 kg iron ore would be 0.78 kg iron.
But there will certainly some other losses, especially because of the low technology level so I would say a yield of 0.6 or less kg would be more appropriate.
For steel other ingredients are also needed but I assume they are readily available? If so you only have to figure out of much kg of iron items the forge puts out in a given time (again with some losses of course).

 

[Water Bob]

What I'm seeing is that it's safe to assume that a cart load of quality ore, or three, would last the forge for quite a while--maybe a year.

 

[Cleon]

I've got a question that I need answered for my campaign. If you don't already know from my other posts, I'm running a 3.5 based CONAN RPG campaign centering around a clan of Cimmerians. The clan chieftain is a master smith, but the clan does not mine for quality ore. Instead, it trades finished goods for raw ore with neighboring clans and peoples.

So, my question is: How long would a single wagon load of ore last at a small village forge run by two smiths and an apprentice?

I'm trying to figure out how often they would need to be re-supplied.

First off, from my reading of Howard I doubt Cimmeria has roads, so they'd have trouble getting wagons to this village. I'd think it much more likely they'd use a train of mules or pack horses to carry the ore.

Secondly, a single smithy would be far more likely to freight in bars or ingots of iron rather than raw iron ore. If this clan is making a living smelting ore into iron, they'd be more likely to process more than they need and trade the excess, which means they'll likely have more than three people involved in the work. Also, smelting iron ore needs a lot of fuel so the clan needs to live somewhere there's an abundant source of wood (for charcoal).

Anyhow, getting back to the original question. A heavy wagon can carry about a ton of ore, a weight that could also be transported by a dozen or so mules.

Let's call it 2000 pounds of iron ore.

They'll likely pick out the richest source of ore that's within a practical transport distance. I'd guess it's somewhere between 60% and 70% iron. So you're talking about 1300 pounds of iron.

That should be enough to last them years. A sword only requires a few pounds of iron and a spearhead is a pound or so. The heaviest thing they are likely to make a lot of are pot helms (10 pounds or so?).

Furthermore, iron would be so valuable they'll be melting down or reforging any iron implements that get worn out or broken. This recycling means they won't need to freight in new iron as often.

 

[Water Bob]

First off, from my reading of Howard I doubt Cimmeria has roads, so they'd have trouble getting wagons to this village. I'd think it much more likely they'd use a train of mules or pack horses to carry the ore.

Ah, good point. In my campaign, I've established that there are trails that pass for roads, here and there, but not many of them. You make a strong point, though.

Secondly, a single smithy would be far more likely to freight in bars or ingots of iron rather than raw iron ore.

Another good point. Maybe you should be running my game!

They'll likely pick out the richest source of ore that's within a practical transport distance. I'd guess it's somewhere between 60% and 70% iron. So you're talking about 1300 pounds of iron.

That should be enough to last them years.

Or...as you say the roads are bad to non-existent. Plus, the Aesir who bring the ore are across the Eiglophian mountains, thus I doubt they travel with A LOT of ore (or ingots) that would weight them down too much. So, maybe a trip to trade is made every year or three.

Your analysis is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for putting in the time to write it. I wish we still had the XP option here on the forum.





I established in my campaign (call it My Hyborian Age) that, centuries ago, a smith emerged among the Grath clan--a clan of Cimmerians that live along the Diamondrun river that runs down the side of the Eiglophians. This is "game history". The Grath's existence depended on the river. They are fishermen, mostly, but someone finally figures out (maybe he is shown by a traveller or trader) how to make a living and support the clan by panning in the river.

It's not weapons they make. This ore is much like bog-ore. But, they learn to make metal instruments.

Who knows how long this goes on for, but at some points, maybe generations later, Aesir traders from the north side of the Eiglophians appear with a small amount of quality ore. The Aesir are miners, and some bright yellow-hair finally thought to see if they could expand their market. So, with a small store of ore in a wagon, they ventured south into the lands of the Cimmerians, comming upon the Grath.

There, a deal was made. Two villages depend on each other, one Aesir, and one Cimmerian.

I won't bore you with the details, but trouble errupted among the Grath clan, and that smith (years later) did the unthinkable and left the clan. He traveled south, just outside of the territory claimed by the Grath, and set up a homestead with his forge. The Aesir traders, appearing every year or so, followed the smith. Quickly, a new clan formed around the smith--and this becomes the players' clan: The clan of the Blue Fox, or Urrough, as it is said in native Cimmerian.

Of course, the Grath didn't just let the smith go easily and start a rival clan. No, there was a civil war, of sorts. A blood feud that goes on to this day. The major war between the two clans halted when the call went out to unite against the Aquilonians at Venarium. Both the Grath and the Foxmen sent warriors. And, after their return, the hostility returned but not to the level it was before Venarium.

To this day, the Grath and the Blue Fox are major enemies.

 

[Cleon]

Ah, good point. In my campaign, I've established that there are trails that pass for roads, here and there, but not many of them. You make a strong point, though.

Well a wagon is likely to be pretty slow on a trail that just passes for a road. It'd likely keep on getting bogged down in muddy hollows or stuck on rocky slopes.

Or...as you say the roads are bad to non-existent. Plus, the Aesir who bring the ore are across the Eiglophian mountains, thus I doubt they travel with A LOT of ore (or ingots) that would weight them down too much. So, maybe a trip to trade is made every year or three.

Yes, that'd probably be enough. The Aesir certainly have a lot of warriors with mail armor, metal weapons and helmets which they have to source from somewhere.

Your analysis is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for putting in the time to write it. I wish we still had the XP option here on the forum.

We can still award XPs using the star between the "Blog this Post" button and the "Report Post" triangle still awards XPs, it's just only the sender and the recipient know about them.

Hopefully the techs will restore the XP display on the forums themselves in due course.

I established in my campaign (call it My Hyborian Age) that, centuries ago, a smith emerged among the Grath clan--a clan of Cimmerians that live along the Diamondrun river that runs down the side of the Eiglophians. This is "game history". The Grath's existence depended on the river. They are fishermen, mostly, but someone finally figures out (maybe he is shown by a traveller or trader) how to make a living and support the clan by panning in the river.

Hold on, you have a river. Is it navigable? It's easier to float iron ore up/downstream that carry it in wagons.

Even if the river is too shallow for boats, when it freezes every winter that river turns into a road. Maybe they carry the ore in at the start of winter on ice-sledges?

 

[Water Bob]

Well a wagon is likely to be pretty slow on a trail that just passes for a road. It'd likely keep on getting bogged down in muddy hollows or stuck on rocky slopes.

Agreed. I think maybe mountain mules may be the way to go on that.

The Aesir certainly have a lot of warriors with mail armor, metal weapons and helmets which they have to source from somewhere.

That's what I was thinking.

Hold on, you have a river. Is it navigable? It's easier to float iron ore up/downstream that carry it in wagons.

Even if the river is too shallow for boats, when it freezes every winter that river turns into a road. Maybe they carry the ore in at the start of winter on ice-sledges?

Another great idea.

It's a mountain river. Not real navigable. Rocky. Shallow in most parts. Some deeper areas, of course. Salmon swimming up stream.

But your idea fits right in with game history above: Why did the Aesir meet the Grath first? Because the Aesir came down the frozen river. I love it.

 

[Roland55]

I'd have to go with Cleon's basic analysis.

Much depends on the quality of the ore and on the availability of suitable fuel. Still, Cleon's rough OM (order of magnitude) guesses sound pretty good to this old engineer.