How Much Ore For A Sword?

[Cleon]

It's a mountain river. Not real navigable. Rocky. Shallow in most parts. Some deeper areas, of course. Salmon swimming up stream.

But your idea fits right in with game history above: Why did the Aesir meet the Grath first? Because the Aesir came down the frozen river. I love it.

Glad to be of help.

They'd have to portage around any (frozen) waterfalls on the river, of course, but it could still be a smoother trip.

One thing to consider is that if they're coming all the way from Aesir land they may only have time to go one one way before the worst of winter hits, and might have to sit it out until spring for the return trip.

Hmm, maybe that was one of the contributory factors to thecurrent feud. The winter storms came in early, so the Aesir couldn't get home and stayed in the Cimmerians village. Tempers frayed as the hot-blooded barbarians were forced to live together in confined quarters as the howling snow beat at the walls...

 

[Cleon]

I'd have to go with Cleon's basic analysis.

Much depends on the quality of the ore and on the availability of suitable fuel. Still, Cleon's rough OM (order of magnitude) guesses sound pretty good to this old engineer.

Yup.

There's also the question of how much of that 1300 pounds of iron they can extract from the ton of ore.

Cimmeria is hardly at the cutting edge of Hybornian technology, so I'm thinking they would be using some kind of Bloomery Furnace to do the smelting. I can imagine more sophisticated states like Vendhya or Khitai might have some kind of blast furnace, considering how much steel they seem to use, but that seem unlikely for the "barbarous" north.

Given good ore, a bloomery furnace yields 25-50% of the ore's weight in iron. So that ton of ore is probably 600-750 pounds of iron ingots/bars once they've finished smelting it. The rest of the iron being lost in the slag.

So, would six or seven hundredweight of iron be enough for them? It depends what they're using it for. If they're saving it for armour, weapons and essential tools like knives or axeheads, plus maybe the occasional elite item like a cauldron for feast days, I reckon it might be enough if they get that much every year, assuming they recycle iron from previous shipments and it's not that big a settlement. If they're using it for everyday stuff like horseshoes, door hinges, manacles to hold prisoners and so on they'd definitely need multiple tons of ore per year.

600-750 pounds is about enough iron to equip, say, thirty warriors with a sword or axe (2 lbs), iron helm (4 lbs) and a coat of mail (15 lbs of iron? - they weigh more than that, but a lot of its padding). Such items could last for years if looked after, so after a decade they could amass enough iron to equip 300 warriors - which might be the entire adult population of the village.

You said they're exporting finished metal trade goods (e.g. weapons), so I'm thinking you would be safer making it more than one ton a year.

 

[Water Bob]

One thing to consider is that if they're coming all the way from Aesir land they may only have time to go one one way before the worst of winter hits, and might have to sit it out until spring for the return trip.

Hmm, maybe that was one of the contributory factors to thecurrent feud. The winter storms came in early, so the Aesir couldn't get home and stayed in the Cimmerians village. Tempers frayed as the hot-blooded barbarians were forced to live together in confined quarters as the howling snow beat at the walls...

That's actually in the backstory. I won't bore you with all the details, but what happened was one of the Grath traded for a woman among the Aesir. This is taboo among the Cimmerians. Predjudice. Most don't want to have their blood line sullied with that of the yellow hairs.

A daughter was produced, and anger towards that family grew over the years until they felt it was no longer safe. But, they couldn't travel with the girl--she was only 9 years old. They thought they'd be burned-out by their fellow clansmen, so they left.

But the girl...they went to the most influential family they knew, outside of the chieftain, and asked that the girl be married into their family. They figured the smith could withstand the predjudices of the clan. A young man in his early 20's did marry the 9 year old half-breed, and that man, today, is the chief of the PC's clan--the Blue Fox. The half-breed Aesir girl is the mother to one of the PCs.

A major part of the reason for the smith to leave the Grath and eventually form his own clan is the girl. For her protection. It seems the smith and his family weren't such a bastion against the clan's hatred as her parents had thought.

You said they're exporting finished metal trade goods (e.g. weapons), so I'm thinking you would be safer making it more than one ton a year.

I wouldn't call it "brisk" trade. It's an occassional thing--sometimes political, between two clans. Plus, the Foxmen have to be careful about arming their own enemies. Yes, there is some trade. And, the Aesir are paid in completed works. But, it's not the best example of a Henry Ford assembly line, pouring out steel weapons and iron do-dads each day. It's more like the village smith supports the clan with a little extra work through trade.

 

[Cleon]

The other question is how much "stuff" your two smiths can produce in a year.

A horseshoe or knifeblade only takes a few hours.

Complicated stuff like swords, axes, or cauldrons-to-impress-the-chief-next-door take a lot longer.

A swordsmith needs anywhere from a few days to several months to produce a sword - it depends a lot on the tools and techniques they use. Making pattern-welded swords takes at least a month, but it's possible to make a sword just as good in a week or two using alternative techniques. I've read traditional katana-makers can turn out something like 1-3 sword a month. A modern "factory forge" worker can make a sword in a few hours or days, but they'd be using qualities of steel and equipment that a Cimmerian hill village would not be able to dream of.

So, if these two smiths are both expert swordmakers and work all-out I doubt they'd produce more than fifty swords a year working all-out, which wouldn't leave them time to make all the other ironware their village would need.

So, my question is: How long would a single wagon load of ore last at a small village forge run by two smiths and an apprentice?

These smiths would need multiple assistants. A single apprentice wouldn't be enough to blow the bellows of the forge for both of them. Maybe the "apprentice" is a junior smith skilled enough to make everyday items like axeheads or knives and leave the more difficult stuff to the two masters?

Oh, and if they are making coats of mail for the warriors and to trade they'll need a lot more people - it's a very labour intensive process riveting all those links together. The smiths would be doing the tricky work of drawing out metal wire then cutting & coiling it to make links, but I imagine a lot of the tribe's women and children helping out by making pieces of mail over the long winter night.

 

[Cleon]

I wouldn't call it "brisk" trade. It's an occassional thing--sometimes political, between two clans. Plus, the Foxmen have to be careful about arming their own enemies. Yes, there is some trade. And, the Aesir are paid in completed works. But, it's not the best example of a Henry Ford assembly line, pouring out steel weapons and iron do-dads each day. It's more like the village smith supports the clan with a little extra work through trade.

Oh right, in that case a ton of iron ore every year or three would hopefully cover it.

 

[Water Bob]

These smiths would need multiple assistants. A single apprentice wouldn't be enough to blow the bellows of the forge for both of them. Maybe the "apprentice" is a junior smith skilled enough to make everyday items like axeheads or knives and leave the more difficult stuff to the two masters?

There's only one apprentice. He's a 14 year old (atm) 3rd level PC. (That level might seem high for a 14 year old, but I'm about to advance the timeline a few years. Plus, the PC is a bit of a hero among the clan, given the events of our first storyline.)

I've described the forge work area as smaller than what I posted in the OP--the pics from the Conan movie. I've established in the game that it is hard for more than two people to work in the forge--too tight of quarters. Two smiths, or a smith and an assistant, is about all that will fit in there and not get in each others' way.

When the PC isn't out hunting or doing something else, they put him to work gathering or chopping wood for the furnance, running errands, making deliveries.

As far as his skill--the character has been around that forge since he could walk. Mechanics-wise, he's got his weaponsmithing skill maxed out. So, yeah, he's a smith in his own right even though his father and uncle treat him as the apprentice.

In fact, I'm using that in the game as a "push" on the character. Sure, the Chieftain has other duties sometimes besides working at the forge all day. When that happens, the PC acts as apprentice to his uncle. But, the PC is learning that there is not a lot of time left for him to be the master of the forge--thus, its hard for him to find time to make his own stuff (not to mention that ore and ingots are prized more highly than most things among the Cimmerians).

This leads to the PC...adventuring. Which is what the game is all about, right?

The size of the forge, the man-power available and able to put to use at any one time, are other reasons I'm erring on the output of the forge being small--but constant enough for these two men and the boy.

Oh, and if they are making coats of mail for the warriors and to trade they'll need a lot more people - it's a very labour intensive process riveting all those links together.

No armor. They make occasional basic shields, and they may attempt a basic helm. But, that's about it. They're, specifically, weaponsmiths--not armorsmiths--in game terms.

Cimmerians tend to shun armor. It's for sissies, like the Aesir and Vanir.

 

[Cleon]

I've described the forge work area as smaller than what I posted in the OP--the pics from the Conan movie. I've established in the game that it is hard for more than two people to work in the forge--too tight of quarters. Two smiths, or a smith and an assistant, is about all that will fit in there and not get in each others' way.

Hmm, both the Arnie Conan the Barbarian and the remake have opening sequences that show a smith pouring molten iron or steel, which requires a temperature higher than real-world premedieval European ironworking could achieve.

That suggests Hyborian metalworking technology was better than medieval Europe, which I suppose is quite possible.

Cimmerians tend to shun armor. It's for sissies, like the Aesir and Vanir.

Not sure what you have to base that on, since there's little information in Howard's work about what Cimmerian culture was actually like.

Conan himself wore the best armour he could get his hands on, he was often in full chain with a helm in a lot of the stories - although he often got captured and stripped to his skivvies.

 

[Cleon]

Actually, looking at that picture from the Conan the Barbarian remake it does suggest a surprisingly high tech level.

Look at all those gear wheels - that forge has some kind of power supply, most likely a waterwheel. I'm thinking it's probably used to drive bellows to power a furnace. The Chinese has water-powered blast furnaces since about the 5th century, so it's certainly possible. Doesn't fit my concept of Cimmeria, though.

 

[Cleon]

Oh, and Merry Christmas everybody!

 

[Water Bob]

That suggests Hyborian metalworking technology was better than medieval Europe, which I suppose is quite possible.

That would be Cimmerian technology--not Hyborian. But, maybe Hyborian, too. I'm simply making the point that the movies show Cimmerian tech, and Cimmerians are not Hyborians.

Not sure what you have to base that on, since there's little information in Howard's work about what Cimmerian culture was actually like.

Conan himself wore the best armour he could get his hands on, he was often in full chain with a helm in a lot of the stories - although he often got captured and stripped to his skivvies.

I've read a ton of Conan, from Howard's stories to many of the 80+ pasthiche novels, to comics and graphic novles both new and old. So, I base that on a general accepted understanding of Cimmerian culture. In both movies, the Cimmerians are less "armored-up" than their foes (The Vanir and Zim's men in the newer movie and Doom's men in the '82 pic). They use leather armor and thick, warm furs. You don't see them in chain or anything more formidable. Now, this may be mearly because of scarcity, but some of the stories I've read, and source books for the RPG, describe the Cimmerians as preferring speed and dexterity over heavy armor that weights a person down.

Same thing with bows. The Cimmerians use them to hunt--not for war. Cowards draw death from a distance. The Cimmerian is in your face, breathing in your last breath when he kills you.

Conan, depending on what story you read, picks up appreciation for modern fighting techniques, the bow, and armor after he leaves Cimmeria. It's the influence that the outside world has on him.

Of course, since Howard did not write much about Cimmerian culture, and we don't know what Conan learned in his homeland vs. what he's picked up during his travels, there can always be debate on all of this.

In my game, I have different Cimmerian clans have different attitudes about these things. Some clans are more advanced and respect armor. Some respect the bow. Other don't and think less of those who use such things.

Look at all those gear wheels - that forge has some kind of power supply, most likely a waterwheel.

Correct. Wide shots of Conan's village in that film show the waterwheel.

Doesn't fit my concept of Cimmeria, though.

That pic is a little more advanced than the smithy I have in my PCs' village. But, I'm likely to have them range far and find a Cimmerian smithy, probably close to one of the Hyborian borders, where they see the advanced tech.

Hm...that's a neat idea. Might have to have that happen one day....