How Much Rolemaster in D&D?

[Psion]

Yes, Rolemaster did introduce the concept of open-ended rolls.

I think Tunnels & Trolls had open ended saves and I know Fantasy Wargaming had open-ended rolls for spells.

 

[Janx]

This is true, but I think the real thanks 3E owes to RM is the concept of class vs cross-class skill buying. RM's Middle Earth variant (I don't own any other RM) was the first game system I had seen in which you paid one price for skills in your class's specialties and a bit more for ones outside your class's specialty (though you could still buy them). Most other games I've seen in which you buy skills don't have that concept.

Most non D&D games don't have classes that would require you to need a cross-class system. Not that it couldn't be done in a skills based system. But once again, when the design team is told, "and I want character classes, and everything must revolve around them" how long are you gonna stare at that blank sheet of paper and not make lists of skills that each class would use. Then, when you compare the lists, you'll find some classes have the same skill shared. Others have skills the other classes don't typically have. I know, let's make those skills cost more for other classes to buy...

Janx

 

[Impeesa]

I always thought I saw a fair bit of influence from both Alternity and Rolemaster in 3E. However, this is probably due as much to the general design philosophy of 3E (take whatever inspiration you can get to fix all the problems with AD&D) as it is to the writers' previous experience on specific games. Just a thought.

I know Monte worked on RM stuff for quite a while before rounding up for 3rd ed. (Still waiting for Dark Space d20!)

Heh. Let me tell you a little story... a few years back, I had a Dwarven Fighter. He enjoyed the simple things in his fantasy life... he beat things with his mace, he drank... a lot (actual conversation: "What's the addiction factor for alcohol, anyways?" "I don't know... if he ever stops drinking, we'll look it up"). You know where he was last sighted around the time the campaign left off? Playing piano (very badly) aboard a magical flying space beetle that was smuggling drugs.

Thanks, Monte.

--Impeesa--

 

[Twowolves]

IIRC, the whole concept of Feats came from the Fallout computer game.

Alternity's roll under/degrees of success was rather like the GDW's house system, where a "difficult" task was roll 1d20 under stat+skill, "hard" was rolld 1d20 under 1/2(stat+skill), "impossible" was roll 1d20 under 1/4(stat+skill) etc etc.

Rolling 1d10 for surprise was 2nd ed, except in 1st edition where drow were surprised only on a 1 in 1d10 (and duergar only on a 1 on 1d12).

Almost everything in 3rd ed D&D, in terms of task resolution mechanics, came first in 4th ed Gamma World.

Twowolves Howling

 

[Staffan]

Alternity's roll under/degrees of success was rather like the GDW's house system, where a "difficult" task was roll 1d20 under stat+skill, "hard" was rolld 1d20 under 1/2(stat+skill), "impossible" was roll 1d20 under 1/4(stat+skill) etc etc.

I think Runequest did that a little earlier than GDW. In Runequest, a "special" success was rolling under 1/5 of your skill, and a critical success was rolling under 1/20th of your skill. OK, different fractions, but the pedigree is certainly there.

 

[diaglo]

I think Tunnels & Trolls had open ended saves and I know Fantasy Wargaming had open-ended rolls for spells.

that's what i'm remembering too.

 

[francisca]

To me, this discussion is full of irony. Rolemaster started off as all of the *-Law supplements (Arms Law, Claw Law, etc..) for D&D, and other games (though with D&D/AD&D being the king of the hill at the time, we know who the target audience was). It wasn't until later that ICE made Rolemaster a stand alone game. So, maybe RM, and other systems, were kinda the R&D branch of D&D, as much as they are stand alone games in their own right.

 

[Nisarg]

Given that the people who designed D&D 3rd have disavowed this "rolemaster-based" theory, I think its pretty safe to say that the idea of RM as a precursor to D&D is a fantasy/conspiracy theory cooked up in the minds of the Rolemaster fanatics that actually want to believe that their highly unpopular game is responsible for all that is good about the most popular game in the world.

Tweet (and Monte Cook too, I believe) has stated repeatedly that the number one influence on D&D 3rd is ALL EARLIER EDITIONS OF D&D. That is the obvious and logical inspiration, not a rules-inflated monstrosity that barely anyone plays.
Its been generally accepted as well that a distant second to earlier D&D editions are some of the intermediate rpgs like Gamma World 4th or Alternity (in both of which you can see many of the "innovations" some people here are attributing to RM). Hell, GW 4th is so close to D20 that you could almost run it unconverted. As for non-tsr games, the main influence would have to be Ars Magica, it had far more influence than any other rpg besides the ones mentioned above. So RM doesn't even make the top five.

The only games RM has seriously influenced have been MERP and HARP, both of which are just RM-lite, and are pretty well only played by RM-fans.

Nisarg

 

[kilamanjaro]

Given that the people who designed D&D 3rd have disavowed this "rolemaster-based" theory, I think its pretty safe to say that the idea of RM as a precursor to D&D is a fantasy/conspiracy theory cooked up in the minds of the Rolemaster fanatics that actually want to believe that their highly unpopular game is responsible for all that is good about the most popular game in the world.

Tweet (and Monte Cook too, I believe) has stated repeatedly that the number one influence on D&D 3rd is ALL EARLIER EDITIONS OF D&D. That is the obvious and logical inspiration, not a rules-inflated monstrosity that barely anyone plays.
Its been generally accepted as well that a distant second to earlier D&D editions are some of the intermediate rpgs like Gamma World 4th or Alternity (in both of which you can see many of the "innovations" some people here are attributing to RM). Hell, GW 4th is so close to D20 that you could almost run it unconverted. As for non-tsr games, the main influence would have to be Ars Magica, it had far more influence than any other rpg besides the ones mentioned above. So RM doesn't even make the top five.

The only games RM has seriously influenced have been MERP and HARP, both of which are just RM-lite, and are pretty well only played by RM-fans.

Nisarg

I don't think it's necessary to dis us RM fans like this. I mean, shouldn't we all be united against those Rifts fans?

 

[MonsterMash]

J.Tweet blames Runequest:

http://www.jonathantweet.com/jotgameppaward.html#RuneQuest

And I always heard that Rolemaster was "Chartmaster", something that harkens back to an earlier version of D&D (or Hackmaster...master=chart?)

I've got to admit that when I first started playing D20 D&D it was a case of 'this is very like BRP' - single mechanic, though instead of % based and low roll as success it was using a D20 and roll high for success. Actually it is one of the things I like most about D20 games is not needing to refer to a chart to work out whether you hit or make the saving throw.