How Much Rolemaster in D&D?

[billd91]

I don't think it's necessary to dis us RM fans like this. I mean, shouldn't we all be united against those Rifts fans?

Eh, Nisarg is pretty much just a jerk. He trashes gamers who don't think like him on a pretty regular basis around here.

 

[Nisarg]

Eh, Nisarg is pretty much just a jerk. He trashes gamers who don't think like him on a pretty regular basis around here.

I'm not trashing gamers for liking Rolemaster; I'm trashing rolemaster fans who try to argue that D20 is based on Rolemaster, when THE PEOPLE WHO INVENTED D20 SAY IT ISN'T.

Nisarg

 

[Rel]

I'm not trashing gamers for liking Rolemaster

If that is your intent then perhaps it would be best to avoid referring to RM as:

highly unpopular

a rules-inflated monstrosity that barely anyone plays

and suggesting that

MERP and HARP...are pretty well only played by RM-fans.

 

[Nisarg]

If that is your intent then perhaps it would be best to avoid referring to RM as:

I referred to RM as an unpopular game. It is, in comparison to D&D and quite a few other RPGs. Its not even on the top ten of most-played rpgs.

I like Over the Edge a great deal. Its also a highly unpopular game, with a very small fan base.
It was also written by one of the creators of D&D 3.0 (Jonathan Tweet).
And yet, you don't see me trying to find any kind of tenuous link possible, and ignoring the glaring differences, to say that D&D is "based on Over the Edge".

I also referred to RM as a rules-bloated monstrosity. It is. It doesn't mean that people can't like it. There have always been gamers who prefer the rules-bloated monstrosities, and gamers who prefer bare-bones rules-lite games, and everything in between.

If you like, take it as an insult to RM, not to the people who play it... again, except those people who stubbornly insist on ignoring reality by trying to claim that D&D is based on Rolemaster, when THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED D&D SAY IT ISN'T.

Nisarg

 

[Nisarg]

Oh yes, and regarding HARP and MERP: I have yet to meet anyone who plays either of those games who was not also a Rolemaster fan.

Nisarg

 

[Rasyr]

I referred to RM as an unpopular game. It is, in comparison to D&D and quite a few other RPGs. Its not even on the top ten of most-played rpgs.

Compared to D&D, all other games can be considered unpopular, using your standards.

I also referred to RM as a rules-bloated monstrosity. It is. It doesn't mean that people can't like it. There have always been gamers who prefer the rules-bloated monstrosities, and gamers who prefer bare-bones rules-lite games, and everything in between.

NOTE: D&D currently has more rules, and more conflicting/convoluted rules that RM ever had. I just think that this is worth pointing out...

And who is responsible for rules bloat? It would be the guy who was the editor at the time, I'd say. For RM2, much of the rules bloat came through the many Companions (along with a good bit of power creep as well). So, who was the editor of those books? Well, it appears that for many of them, it was one of the d20 designers who worked for WOTC. Take that for what you will....

Your argument might hold more water if it weren't for the fact that this designer apparently (from things seen) tries to ignore the fact that he ever worked for ICE. With this being the case, it is no surprise that he "denies" it having any influence. You are taking their word for "gospel". You show skepticism for the comments of others, but apparently not for these idols of yours.

If a person has worked or played a system extensively, then they are going to be influenced by it, no matter what they day. Being the person who designed HARP, I know this for a fact. I was influenced by RM, Harn, Hero, Arcanum, and even D&D while I was designing HARP. RM was the largest influence, mostly because of certain goals I was given for designing it, but it was by no means the only influence.

You also referred to MERP and HARP as nothing more than RM-Lite, which is inaccurate. A Lite version of a game is where you take a game and strip things out. This was not the case with HARP (I have no idea about MERP, but from my understanding, it had a number of differences from RM as well). HARP was built from the ground up, based on the same concepts as RM, yes, but taken in different directions. That makes it a related system, not a Lite version of the other system. Your comment is akin to saying that d20 Modern is nothing more than D&D-Lite.....

If you like, take it as an insult to RM, not to the people who play it... again, except those people who stubbornly insist on ignoring reality by trying to claim that D&D is based on Rolemaster, when

Except that in this thread, most of the people claiming influences from RM are not die-hard RM fans. Most of them are folks who have played RM a few times, if that. It seems to me that only person who is trying to ignore reality here is the person who came into this thread just to start an arguement.

Plus there is the issue of you almost rabidly attacking anything that seems, to you, to impugn upon your idols. This cropped up back when Dancey was a scandal, and it is apparently cropping up again.

THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED D&D SAY IT ISN'T.

Gary Gygax & Dave Arneson say it isn't? Wow! I did not know that....

 

[Rasyr]

Oh yes, and regarding HARP and MERP: I have yet to meet anyone who plays either of those games who was not also a Rolemaster fan.

Have you met Teflon Billy?

There is also a fellow on the ICE forums called ChosenDM. He never once played RM before trying HARP. He is now a strong HARP fan.

Apparently, you need to get out more...

 

[Nisarg]

Compared to D&D, all other games can be considered unpopular, using your standards.

NOTE: D&D currently has more rules, and more conflicting/convoluted rules that RM ever had. I just think that this is worth pointing out...

I don't believe that to be the case.
Hell, D&D 3.x is less complicated than MERP, and MERP is a rules-lite version of RM!

Your argument might hold more water if it weren't for the fact that this designer apparently (from things seen) tries to ignore the fact that he ever worked for ICE. With this being the case, it is no surprise that he "denies" it having any influence. You are taking their word for "gospel". You show skepticism for the comments of others, but apparently not for these idols of yours.

While you choose to ignore the various other systems that can, collectively, account for every mechanic you claim was "taken" from RM. Systems that the designers of 3.x DO credit with being a direct influence. The argument for claiming Ars Magica as a direct influence on D&D is quite a bit stronger, for instance, than that of RM.

Likewise, you could consider that it would be common sense that the largest influence on D&D would be... D&D.

You also referred to MERP and HARP as nothing more than RM-Lite, which is inaccurate. A Lite version of a game is where you take a game and strip things out. This was not the case with HARP (I have no idea about MERP, but from my understanding, it had a number of differences from RM as well). HARP was built from the ground up, based on the same concepts as RM, yes, but taken in different directions. That makes it a related system, not a Lite version of the other system. Your comment is akin to saying that d20 Modern is nothing more than D&D-Lite.....

Having read both HARP and RM, it appears to me that HARP is significantly less complicated than RM. Trust me that coming from me its a compliment...

So its more like saying that Blue Rose is a "rules lite" version of D&D.

I find it amusing that you seem to equate the word "lite" with "bad".

...Being the person who designed HARP...

Except that in this thread, most of the people claiming influences from RM are not die-hard RM fans. Most of them are folks who have played RM a few times, if that. It seems to me that only person who is trying to ignore reality here is the person who came into this thread just to start an arguement.

Most people may or may not be (I would presume the person who started the thread to be).
But RM-fanatics, and, say, the guy who designed the current "inheritor" to RM, might have just a bit of a vested interest in trying to claim that D&D ripped off RM.
I could imagine that say, someone who designed the "Heir Apparent to Rolemaster Presently" would be particularly interested in being able to claim such a connection, as it would make it easier to convince people to try out his own system. That wouldn't be a problem if it weren't a deception, but unfortunately claiming such a connection is no more true than claiming that say, BRP or GURPS or any other pre-existing system was an influence on D20 (and a lot less true than claiming that a few games like Ars Magica or Gamma World 4th were influences).

Plus there is the issue of you almost rabidly attacking anything that seems, to you, to impugn upon your idols. This cropped up back when Dancey was a scandal, and it is apparently cropping up again.

I don't know where you get the idea that Monte Cook, who would be the writer in question here, was one of my "idols" (he isn't, though within gaming you could certainly say Jonathan Tweet is), or why you think that your claims, even if they were true, would in any way "impugn" him.

Nisarg

 

[Akrasia]

Standard NPCs of various classes/levels in the DMG?

(Obviously, that could be done in any system, but...)

Actually, IIRC, Rolemaster (1e and 2e) had breakdowns of standard NPCs for levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, and 20 (maybe more). That was in 1980, I think.

 

[Akrasia]

Oh yes, and regarding HARP and MERP: I have yet to meet anyone who plays either of those games who was not also a Rolemaster fan.

Nisarg

MERP was my favourite game in the mid-1980s. My high-school group played it for 3 years straight.

We tried Rolemaster a few times, but never got into it. We didn't hate RM, but we definitely were not 'fans'.