How often should a Ftr 7 hit a CR 7 opponent?

[Darklone]

I don't find Nail's values believable. For a start, the value at first level should be +4 (+3 Str, +1 Focus); I expect Nail's including the bonus from Bless, but that's not reasonable at that level. And +44 at L20 is optimistic, though not by much, and highly dependent on magic.

+44 on level 20 is not much... if you don't depend highly on magic at this level, the whole D&D game balance breaks down.

 

[Nail]

FWIW, At 20th level, a Ftrs attack bonus should be +38:

BAB +20, Str (16+5 lvl+6 Enhance +4 Inherent=31)+10, Weapon +5, Feats +3

For a 20th level PC, none of that is unreasonable. In fact, it's a bit low, considering I've neglected ALL buff spells, etc.

 

[Slaved]

hey nail,

For 11th level you have +22, what were you using to get this?

+11 base attack bonus, +2 weapon, +1 feat, +6 (strength 16 base, +2 levels, +4 belt) = +20

I was wondering what you were assuming for the other two points. I am guessing a +3 weapon for one of them, but what about the other? I made a fighter in another thread and I was wondering if I was missing something easy.

 

[Quartz]

+2 for Weapon Mastery

 

[Slaved]

I do not have my players handbook 2 with me right now. I had thought weapon mastery could only be taken at level 12 or later. I will check that later, maybe the other fighter could get a modification.

 

[Nail]

I was wondering what you were assuming for the other two points. I am guessing a +3 weapon for one of them, but what about the other?

Hi Slaved!

I don't have my spreadsheet with me, but:

For weapons, I estimated how much of a PCs total wealth would be spent on his/her primary weapon. IIRC, I said 25%. (25% armor, 15% saves, etc) If so, it's pretty easy to calculate what "plus" weapon a certain level PC should have, given DMG wealth guidelines.

For this fighter, I included the melee feats in the PH, CW, and PH 2. I readily admit there is plenty "house rule/permissible feat" territory here. That said, I think this sort of analysis is pretty darn revealing.

 

[Nail]

It is an interesting intellectual exercise. I think the designers avoided this route because it would leave most non-Fighters in the frustration zone.

Maybe not.

Although non-fighters 3/4 BAB means they hit less often, the difference doesn't become very large until high level. By that time it's safe to assume their other class abilities have kicked in to help them out. And if you look at what I've posted, BAB means less-and-less as you go up in level. Ability scores, feats, and magic weapons make-up the difference.

Besides.....

Shouldn't the Fighter be the best at hitting things? Those 3/4 BAB classes really *shouldn't* be hitting as often as the Ftr.

 

[Darklone]

FWIW, At 20th level, a Ftrs attack bonus should be +38:

BAB +20, Str (16+5 lvl+6 Enhance +4 Inherent=31)+10, Weapon +5, Feats +3

For a 20th level PC, none of that is unreasonable. In fact, it's a bit low, considering I've neglected ALL buff spells, etc.

Yupp. Weapon Focus, Melee Weapon Mastery and/or Imp WF, some morale bonuses, Heroism, bards song, Bless effects or other stuff... Plenty common possibilities to get higher bonuses.

 

[IanB]

Shouldn't the Fighter be the best at hitting things? Those 3/4 BAB classes really *shouldn't* be hitting as often as the Ftr.

Well, they never will be unless the baseline is set such that everyone's attacks all hit anyway. After all, by definition, the fighter's *second* swing is just as good as the 3/4 guy's first swing.

If you put the baseline in a spot where 3/4 classes are only 50/50 on their first swing, that is going to make for a lot of frustrated rogues, who are already screwed by a number of encounter types (golems, undead, etc.) I think it is very reasonable to use the 3/4 class as the baseline when doing encounter design; they'll be able to hit enough to feel useful, then, and the fighter types will be demonstrably *good* at hitting, which is probably where they should be.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Although non-fighters 3/4 BAB means they hit less often, the difference doesn't become very large until high level. By that time it's safe to assume their other class abilities have kicked in to help them out. And if you look at what I've posted, BAB means less-and-less as you go up in level. Ability scores, feats, and magic weapons make-up the difference.

Besides.....

Shouldn't the Fighter be the best at hitting things? Those 3/4 BAB classes really *shouldn't* be hitting as often as the Ftr.

Surely the Fighter will be hitting more often anyway? BAB is BAB and always adds in.

If our idealized Fighter hits 75% of the time, then at 10th level the 3/4 BAB class would hit 60% if we go by BAB differences alone.

Generally speaking, do you really think that various other boosts will outstrip the Fighter with respect to non-BAB to hit bonuses?

It might be the case in some instances, but I would not think that is a good generalization.

The Cleric can...if he gets all the time in the world to layer on the buffs and is willing to spend the spells to boot.

The Rogue? The Monk? The Druid? Their non-BAB modifiers are going to lag unless they hyperoptimize their to hit bonuses.