D&D 5E How on earth is this balanced?! Twilight cleric, more in-play evidence


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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
A standard action is never a straight upgrade to a bonus action. Especially when the bonus action isn't a spell.

Not saying that it's not better - but an action is a high cost.

The problem with the Twilight Cleric isn't the channel divinity. That would be fine as a central reason for taking the class. It's that it has the channel divinity and the darkvision and the martial weapons + heavy armour and the initiative and the flight and a superb spell list.
Indeed.

You could outright remove the twilight aura (or very strongly nerf it) and they still would be a very solid cleric.
 


Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
Yeah . . . I have a Drow Twilight Cleric in my Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign right now. It is remarkably overpowered, not just because of the crazy amounts of THP that it can get and give to its allies, but also because it can stack with so many other things. Heavy Armor and a Shield, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Twilight Sanctuary, and Aid can all be stacked on top of each other. That gives the Twilight Domain Cleric a crazy amount of survivability at lower levels, and they can share almost all of those things with allies.

The Artillerist has to expend an Action to create an Eldritch Cannon, and then a bonus action every round in order to grant allies within 10 feet of it 1d8 + INT mod THP, and Eldritch Cannon recharges each long rest. Twilight Sanctuary is just one action to activate, automatic THP/ending charmed/frightened on every ally within 30 feet when they start their turn there, it recharges on a short rest, they get even more Channel Divinities each short rest when they level up, and the THP granted scales way better (1d6 + cleric level, instead of 1d8 + INT mod).

That's just . . . plain broken. I know that clerics are supposed to be good protectors/healers/supporters, but there is such a thing as being too good at those things. It makes it harder to balance encounters, and it makes the other players feel like they're not accomplishing their in-game niche as effectively as the Twilight Domain Cleric is.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
Yeah . . . I have a Drow Twilight Cleric in my Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign right now. It is remarkably overpowered, not just because of the crazy amounts of THP that it can get and give to its allies, but also because it can stack with so many other things. Heavy Armor and a Shield, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Twilight Sanctuary, and Aid can all be stacked on top of each other. That gives the Twilight Domain Cleric a crazy amount of survivability at lower levels, and they can share almost all of those things with allies.

The Artillerist has to expend an Action to create an Eldritch Cannon, and then a bonus action every round in order to grant allies within 10 feet of it 1d8 + INT mod THP, and Eldritch Cannon recharges each long rest. Twilight Sanctuary is just one action to activate, automatic THP/ending charmed/frightened on every ally within 30 feet when they start their turn there, it recharges on a short rest, they get even more Channel Divinities each short rest when they level up, and the THP granted scales way better (1d6 + cleric level, instead of 1d8 + INT mod).

That's just . . . plain broken. I know that clerics are supposed to be good protectors/healers/supporters, but there is such a thing as being too good at those things. It makes it harder to balance encounters, and it makes the other players feel like they're not accomplishing their in-game niche as effectively as the Twilight Domain Cleric is.
Our campaign started with GoS, then ended with one of my own adventures. Early on in GoS there is plate mail. So yeah, a twilight cleric with AC 21 and all that temp HP? Hard to hit, and when you do, they just get the temp HP right back. Then throw on other spells like shield of faith? Best tank ever. Also worked exceptionally well with the barbarian, which effectively doubled the temp hp (because of damage resistance).
 



Mort

Legend
Supporter
Apparently I use a different means of measuring fun than effectiveness in combat compared to the other players.
Who said it's just combat?

A properly prepared 3e mage (one who properly utilizes the way item creation works) can make a 3e rogue near completely superfluous and still accomplish their own role just fine - that's a system issue.
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
Yeah it's OP if not broken.

We have one in current group. In the Underdark.

The flying ability is also nice. If need be she flies around with spiritual guardians running.

Treantmonk gave it an S rating along with the peace cleric and he is very strict. Dungeon Dudes also gave it an S.

Zard would also rate it S tier.
 



Zardnaar

Legend
A standard action is never a straight upgrade to a bonus action. Especially when the bonus action isn't a spell.

Not saying that it's not better - but an action is a high cost.

The problem with the Twilight Cleric isn't the channel divinity. That would be fine as a central reason for taking the class. It's that it has the channel divinity and the darkvision and the martial weapons + heavy armour and the initiative and the flight and a superb spell list.

This.

Our twilight cleric doesn't turn undead. She flies around granting temporary hit points using spiritual guardians and maybe spiritual hammer to nuke everything.

She also has booming blade and gfb. And gauntlets of ogre power.

Without the gauntlets you use toll the dead/sacred flame, medium armor and the Tasha variant rule for divine strike.

She's also competing with the rogue and paladin for damage.
 


Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Yeah . . . I have a Drow Twilight Cleric in my Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign right now. It is remarkably overpowered, not just because of the crazy amounts of THP that it can get and give to its allies, but also because it can stack with so many other things. Heavy Armor and a Shield, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Twilight Sanctuary, and Aid can all be stacked on top of each other. That gives the Twilight Domain Cleric a crazy amount of survivability at lower levels, and they can share almost all of those things with allies.

The Artillerist has to expend an Action to create an Eldritch Cannon, and then a bonus action every round in order to grant allies within 10 feet of it 1d8 + INT mod THP, and Eldritch Cannon recharges each long rest. Twilight Sanctuary is just one action to activate, automatic THP/ending charmed/frightened on every ally within 30 feet when they start their turn there, it recharges on a short rest, they get even more Channel Divinities each short rest when they level up, and the THP granted scales way better (1d6 + cleric level, instead of 1d8 + INT mod).

That's just . . . plain broken. I know that clerics are supposed to be good protectors/healers/supporters, but there is such a thing as being too good at those things. It makes it harder to balance encounters, and it makes the other players feel like they're not accomplishing their in-game niche as effectively as the Twilight Domain Cleric is.
Also to use the temp HP cannon, the artillerist has to give up on her force ballista, reducing their damage output quite significantly. The Psi warrior can't use his psi points to do more damage, or reaction to do AoO. The twilight cleric can't turn undead... but they might not need to!
 


TheSword

Legend
It’s good but like all beacon type abilities it makes the twilight cleric a big glowing target. If used excessively just have every enemy focus on the cleric… which is the sensible tactical thing for intelligent foes.

Don’t forget that if the cleric is incapacitated in any way the ability ends. So dropping to 0 hp, sleep, hold person, stunning all stop it.

If like me you’ll willing to adapt foes to the party then this ability let’s you ramp up the difficulty and make fights more epic. Giving all PCs a boost in HP is fine if it means they can face tougher challenges.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Also to use the temp HP cannon, the artillerist has to give up on her force ballista, reducing their damage output quite significantly. The Psi warrior can't use his psi points to do more damage, or reaction to do AoO. The twilight cleric can't turn undead... but they might not need to!

The opportunity cost on artillerist hurts and it's not that great anyway.

Artificer kinda sucks anyway (all of them).
 


Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
The opportunity cost on artillerist hurts and it's not that great anyway.

Artificer kinda sucks anyway (all of them).
I've heard that from a number of people. I'm very disappointed with the alchemist. I haven't seen any of them in play to be frank. (and yet I've seen shepherd druid, bladesigner, rune knight, hexblades... strange how that goes).
 

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