D&D 5E How on earth is this balanced?! Twilight cleric, more in-play evidence

[Zardnaar]

It doesn't have to be a consistent counter since that would just be picking on the cleric because the DM doesn't like one of their abilities, it just has to be an option from time to time. Let the twilight cleric shine in some combats but in others, there will be counters. Every ability has some sort of counter which should be brought out from time to time.

They only real counter is target the cleric deliberately (indicates there's a problem) or use lots of counter spells and dispel magic.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ok, but aren’t these applicable to most clerics? Fly in darkness or dim light is good… particularly in a drow campaign. But its hardly outrageous… particularly in a campaign that doesn’t have a lot of dim light.

The weakness most clerics have is at range. It's not that big of a disadvantage compared to anyone melee based in heavy armor.

Fly plus the temporary hit points put the cleric over the top.

Think she's a sorcerer/cleric the dip was for divine soul but I said no to that combo.

 

[cbwjm]

They only real counter is target the cleric deliberately (indicates there's a problem) or use lots of counter spells and dispel magic.

Yeah, but targetting a character in general is how you counter them. How do you stop class X from using ability Y? You target them.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah, but targetting a character in general is how you counter them. How do you stop class X from using ability Y? You target them.

Generally you don't needs to target specific characters.

That was a suggested counter in 3.5 as well.

It's also not fun for the player getting targeted or shut down.

Maybe if they're a powergamer.

Twilight cleric looks good even to a casual I suspect. Then you see it in action and yeah problem.

 

[Mort]

Oo, yeah, glamour bards drive me up the wall too! Let's talk about them!


... Oh.

That's a good point of comparison.

Glamour bard can grant temp HP too. let's see how they compare:

3rd level:

Glamour bard is granting 5 Temp HP to 3-4 people (within 60 ft) at the cost of 1 bardic inspiration.

Twilight cleric is granting 4-9 HP every round (sure they don't stack, but they do replenish) to anyone he wants within 30ft at the cost of a channel divinity.

I'd say the twilight cleric's version is better - but he can do it a bit less (but it replenishes on a short rest so not that much less at this level).

14th level

Glamout bard is granting 14 Temp HP to 5 people (within 60 ft) at the cost of 1 bardic inspiration

Twilight cleric is granting 15-21 HP every round to anyone he wants within 30ft at the cost of a channel divinity.

Again Bard can do it more often (but it doesn't replenish so she has to) but still clear win for the cleric.

Comparing it side by side really shows how MUCH better the twilight cleric's version is.

 

[Ancalagon]

Oo, yeah, glamour bards drive me up the wall too! Let's talk about them!


... Oh.

I haven't really looked at that one. I will do so ... with trepidation.

 

[jayoungr]

That's a good point of comparison.

Glamour bard can grant temp HP too. let's see how they compare:

Your comparison is missing two things, though:

1. After 5th level, the glamour bard regains all bardic inspiration points on a short rest.

2. Mantle of Majesty doesn't just grant temporary HP--it also allows all the recipients to move their speed without provoking opportunity attacks, which makes a HUGE difference to the battlefield.

 

[Mort]

Your comparison is missing two things, though:

1. After 5th level, the glamour bard regains all bardic inspiration points on a short rest.

But the bards Temp HP do not replenish she has to use the ability again to replenish it, the cleric's replenish every round for a full minute.

2. Mantle of Majesty doesn't just grant temporary HP--it also allows all the recipients to move their speed without provoking opportunity attacks, which makes a HUGE difference to the battlefield.

Yes, the movement without provoking attacks of opportunity is nice but the Twilight cleric gets a host of other abilities too - haven't even touched on those.

Edit: One thing I did not consider. The Glamour Bard's ability is a bonus action. That IS actually a significant improvement and often overlooked.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Your comparison is missing two things, though:

1. After 5th level, the glamour bard regains all bardic inspiration points on a short rest.

2. Mantle of Majesty doesn't just grant temporary HP--it also allows all the recipients to move their speed without provoking opportunity attacks, which makes a HUGE difference to the battlefield.

3: Mantle of Majesty is a bonus action.

4: The Bard is a better base class.

 

[Undrave]

Also, the DM being able to solve an issue, does not eliminate that issue. The DM shouldn't have to FULLY understand every ability to design a proper adventure. And further, if the DM is designing adventures /encounters to be a challenge in spite of one specific ability - yeah that's a problem.

Last Saturday we finished up a campaign with a twilight cleric. The party got to level 10. Yeah, it's pretty OP. I had to alter many encounters so they wouldn't be cake walks. Every time I managed to hit them, they just got more temp HP the next round. It was crazy.

the game doesn't need to be balanced on a razor's edge. It just need to be balanced enough that a DM can bring ANY adventure to ANY party and have a fun time. When you need to 'take into account' someone's abilities when designing your adventures and encounters, then it becomes a problem.

So the game I ran with a twilight cleric? There was also a shepherd druid in the party, who played as a "summoner". The "meatwall" was insane.

I can imagine. I got bored of MY Shepherd Druid because Conjure Animals was just busted and too good.

 

[jayoungr]

But the bards Temp HP do not replenish she has to use the ability again to replenish it, the cleric's replenish every round for a full minute.

In my experience? The bard is usually able to keep the whole party topped up in between short rests. Partly because the party insists on resting as soon as the bard runs out of bardic inspiration, unless there's a doom clock. (And you can't use a doom clock in every single session or it gets old.)

I say this as someone with a player in two regular groups who refuses to play anything but glamour bards. I have seen them in action a LOT.

Edit: One thing I did not consider. The Glamour Bard's ability is a bonus action. That IS actually a significant improvement and often overlooked.

Oops, yes, I meant to mention that too but got distracted by someone calling me to dinner just as I posted.

 

[Mort]

In my experience? The bard is usually able to keep the whole party topped up in between short rests. Partly because the party insists on resting as soon as the bard runs out of bardic inspiration, unless there's a doom clock. (And you can't use a doom clock in every single session or it gets old.)

True. Whenever the players (vs. the DM) are allowed to dictate the pace of play, classes with reset abilities tend to dominate more.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I guess you could charm the cleric and have them spread the THP to their ''new friends'' also?

Or

grab them and run away so that their allies are out of range of the zone?

I agree that there's not a long list of possible non-spells counters to this abilities.

 

[Undrave]

Yup any well played cleric tends to use the same spells.

Yeah all the best Cleric spells are so obvious there's no reason to ever modify your spell list...

4: The Bard is a better base class.

I don't about 'better' but they sure as heck are MORE FUN. 5e Clerics are SO BORING!

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah all the best Cleric spells are so obvious there's no reason to ever modify your spell list...

I don't about 'better' but they sure as heck are MORE FUN. 5e Clerics are SO BORING!

Optimized clerics essentially use 5 spells.

Bless, Spiritual Weapon/Guardians and healing word. And guidance.

There's other good ones but don't leave without them.

 

[cbwjm]

Generally you don't needs to target specific characters.

That was a suggested counter in 3.5 as well.

It's also not fun for the player getting targeted or shut down.

Maybe if they're a powergamer.

Twilight cleric looks good even to a casual I suspect. Then you see it in action and yeah problem.

Well yeah, you don't spend every encounter targeting the same player, that wouldn't be fun for them. But that doesn't mean that you don't bring out a counter to a PC ability from time to time, whatever the players have to counter the enemies, the enemies have too. That means that they will hit the hasted character with a dispel or counterspell the wizard, or hold person the barbarian, etc.

 

[overgeeked]

It’s clearly broken. There’s no argument there. And it’s so bizarrely broken. D&D5E fights are already super easy mode. Most fights are a cakewalk unless the DM goes out of her way to unbalance things. It takes some wild dog-piling to get things to the point where the PCs are even challenged, to say nothing of in proper jeopardy.

But I honestly wonder: so what? Most groups have to bribe someone to play the cleric. Having such an obviously broken subclass (well, two with the Peace cleric) will hopefully draw some munchkins to the role and help ease the shortage of cleric players. If it’s such a pain in play, just talk to the players and ban the class. You don’t have to allow it at your table. Saying no to your players about busted stuff doesn’t make you a bad DM.

A more balanced approach, like in 4E, that allows the healer to both heal and do damage regularly might help. Players don’t want to be a heal-bot. It’s boring.

 

[Zardnaar]

Well yeah, you don't spend every encounter targeting the same player, that wouldn't be fun for them. But that doesn't mean that you don't bring out a counter to a PC ability from time to time, whatever the players have to counter the enemies, the enemies have too. That means that they will hit the hasted character with a dispel or counterspell the wizard, or hold person the barbarian, etc.

I've been using a lot of dispel magics but that's more high level D&D in general.

I do roughly 1/3rd melee, 1/3rd mixed and 1/3rd flying/ranged type encounters.

Flyers might have spells or breath weapons, ranged might be fireball or lightning bolt.

Saves scale poorly an upcast hold person got 3/4 of them.

 

[Don Durito]

It’s clearly broken. There’s no argument there. And it’s so bizarrely broken. D&D5E fights are already super easy mode. Most fights are a cakewalk unless the DM goes out of her way to unbalance things. It takes some wild dog-piling to get things to the point where the PCs are even challenged, to say nothing of in proper jeopardy.

But I honestly wonder: so what? Most groups have to bribe someone to play the cleric. Having such an obviously broken subclass (well, two with the Peace cleric) will hopefully draw some munchkins to the role and help ease the shortage of cleric players. If it’s such a pain in play, just talk to the players and ban the class. You don’t have to allow it at your table. Saying no to your players about busted stuff doesn’t make you a bad DM.

A more balanced approach, like in 4E, that allows the healer to both heal and do damage regularly might help. Players don’t want to be a heal-bot. It’s boring.

Really? It's an awful long time since I've seen that.

 

[Zardnaar]

It’s clearly broken. There’s no argument there. And it’s so bizarrely broken. D&D5E fights are already super easy mode. Most fights are a cakewalk unless the DM goes out of her way to unbalance things. It takes some wild dog-piling to get things to the point where the PCs are even challenged, to say nothing of in proper jeopardy.

But I honestly wonder: so what? Most groups have to bribe someone to play the cleric. Having such an obviously broken subclass (well, two with the Peace cleric) will hopefully draw some munchkins to the role and help ease the shortage of cleric players. If it’s such a pain in play, just talk to the players and ban the class. You don’t have to allow it at your table. Saying no to your players about busted stuff doesn’t make you a bad DM.

A more balanced approach, like in 4E, that allows the healer to both heal and do damage regularly might help. Players don’t want to be a heal-bot. It’s boring.

There's other fun clerics eg death, order and light. My clerics more or less refuse to heal as magical healing is so inefficient in 5E.

Either take the healing feat, short rest or buy some healing potions. I'll heal you to save your life or the occasional mass heal but magical healing is only coming if all hit dice are gone and there's no other choice.

My spell slots are more valuable than your hit points.

Basically don't throw your hp away expecting healing. I would rather buff you or nuke the enemy over healing.