D&D (2024) Agathys forever

[Dausuul]

Keep in mind THP doesn't stack, and the spell ends when it runs out.

So while you get 157THP.
You "loose" the 25 you had.

Also, it that doesn't work against ranged attacks or dragons breath.

I mean, sure, it has its limitations, but you can do it at 7th level* if you've got a wizard in the party. The Shapechange stuff doesn't come online until a level where you can make yourself totally immune to damage for 10 minutes, or lay down four gigantic blasts dealing 140 points of damage at a range of 1 mile, and that's not even getting into what you can do with Wish.

A 7th-level PC with 157 hp and a powerful double attack, who deals 20 points of retaliation damage every time they get hit in melee? I'd buy that for a dollar.

*Obviously, you will only be able to upcast AoA to 4th level.

 

[mellored]

I mean, sure, it has its limitations, but you can do it at 7th level* if you've got a wizard in the party. The Shapechange stuff doesn't come online until a level where you can make yourself totally immune to damage for 10 minutes, or lay down four gigantic blasts dealing 140 points of damage at a range of 1 mile, and that's not even getting into what you can do with Wish.

A 7th-level PC with 157 hp and a powerful double attack, who deals 20 points of retaliation damage every time they get hit in melee? I'd buy that for a dollar.

*Obviously, you will only be able to upcast AoA to 4th level.

Perhaps even better.
Be warlock 1/abjuration wizard.

That gives you even more stacking "thp".

 

[Kurotowa]

Perhaps even better.
Be warlock 1/abjuration wizard.

I did see a build proposed around that, though it was back in the playtest when you could grab AoA with Magic Initiate. Also when AoA hadn't be updated and you couldn't refresh the temp HP. But I suppose it still holds together with just a one level dip in Warlock.

Cast AoA with your highest level slot, layer your Arcane Ward on top of it, stand on the front line and dare the enemy to hit you. On paper it looks good, but once again in practice it really depends on how much your DM is willing to humor it.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Probably because they assume you're using it as a Warlock, so it's always up-cast? At 5th level Warlock it's 15 temp HP, so even with the weaker 2014 version if you get hit in melee for less than 15, then hit again exhausting the remainder, you're dealing out a total of 30 cold damage.

I found it pretty good in the Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign I played in as a Hexblade.

Simply put, while I recognize the value here (if you can get 30 damage from a 3rd-level spell slot, that's pretty solid), I don't see the gushing appeal, where this spell is rated as almost universally "excellent," while other spells with similar limitations aren't. Frex, the Celestial patron's guardian of faith is ranked as barely passable, despite being 60-70 damage so long as enemies do in fact move within 10' of the guardian (meaning, a 25' wide corridor)--and whether enemies pass or fail their save, they still take damage, plus the guardian keeps going if enemies pass their saves.

I guess the optimization guides are expecting you to pair it with other sources of non-AC damage mitigation, so that the THP last longer? It still always seemed like a risky bet. That said, I think I may have under-valued it somewhat because I thought you dealt damage equal to the THP you currently have, rather than a fixed 5 (times slot level) every hit.

For comparison though, I have an 8th level Warlock right now, so I don't quite have access to the maximum level spell slots and am still working with just the two you start with. My flaming sphere and sickening radiance have both done far, far more than 40 damage from a single casting. Admittedly, that is with concentration...but the point still stands that the slot usage is simply more efficient.

I can certainly see why this is a good spell, one worth having on hand. But I don't see why it is so effusively, overwhelmingly praised as being OMG AWESOME. It's good. It's not THAT good.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Probably because they assume you're using it as a Warlock, so it's always up-cast? At 5th level Warlock it's 15 temp HP, so even with the weaker 2014 version if you get hit in melee for less than 15, then hit again exhausting the remainder, you're dealing out a total of 30 cold damage.

I found it pretty good in the Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign I played in as a Hexblade.

Also if you can get the stats sorted, it’s fun on a monk, with deflect attacks.

Any form of damage negation is a good combo.

Also, it’s turned some tough fights into doable without dropping for me, playing warlocks.

 

[Ancalagon]

I think it was a deliberate choice to remove the need to keep track of where your temp hp came from.

Not sure they considered all the implications...

Not sure indeed... same way I'm not sure they considered all the implications of the changes to the timing of damage infliction for spells like spirit guardians.

 

[Ancalagon]

Simply put, while I recognize the value here (if you can get 30 damage from a 3rd-level spell slot, that's pretty solid), I don't see the gushing appeal, where this spell is rated as almost universally "excellent," while other spells with similar limitations aren't. Frex, the Celestial patron's guardian of faith is ranked as barely passable, despite being 60-70 damage so long as enemies do in fact move within 10' of the guardian (meaning, a 25' wide corridor)--and whether enemies pass or fail their save, they still take damage, plus the guardian keeps going if enemies pass their saves.

I guess the optimization guides are expecting you to pair it with other sources of non-AC damage mitigation, so that the THP last longer? It still always seemed like a risky bet. That said, I think I may have under-valued it somewhat because I thought you dealt damage equal to the THP you currently have, rather than a fixed 5 (times slot level) every hit.

For comparison though, I have an 8th level Warlock right now, so I don't quite have access to the maximum level spell slots and am still working with just the two you start with. My flaming sphere and sickening radiance have both done far, far more than 40 damage from a single casting. Admittedly, that is with concentration...but the point still stands that the slot usage is simply more efficient.

I can certainly see why this is a good spell, one worth having on hand. But I don't see why it is so effusively, overwhelmingly praised as being OMG AWESOME. It's good. It's not THAT good.

I think it's very good if used properly (protect/stretch the temp HP so you can inflict the cold damage several times). But OMG awesome? I don't think so - in part because you need to put in the effort to make it work.

It really depends on how often you can inflict the cold damage. Only once? Meh. Twice... ok. Three or more times starts getting good. And with these 3 digits sources of temp hp, 4, 5, 6 become plausible!

 

[mellored]

Also if you can get the stats sorted, it’s fun on a monk, with deflect attacks.

Yea, but you can't get both a high deflect attack and a high Armor of Agythis.

It's not like you can cast it on someone else.

Any form of damage negation is a good combo.

It only takes 1 level to get Rage.

 

[Mannahnin]

Simply put, while I recognize the value here (if you can get 30 damage from a 3rd-level spell slot, that's pretty solid),

30 damage and preventing 15 damage (from a 3rd level slot), remember.

For comparison though, I have an 8th level Warlock right now, so I don't quite have access to the maximum level spell slots and am still working with just the two you start with. My flaming sphere and sickening radiance have both done far, far more than 40 damage from a single casting. Admittedly, that is with concentration...but the point still stands that the slot usage is simply more efficient.

Flaming Sphere does 3d6 (Dex save for half) with a 3rd level slot, so it'll usually take some work and several rounds to get it to do big damage, though that multiplies quickly in a crowd situation where you can get it next to several targets. We're only talking three failed saves to average 31.5 damage, but loss of concentration may cut it off early.

Sickening Radiance is a 4th level spell (so compare 22 dmg/target, save for half, to 20 temp HP and a good chance of 40 cold damage from AoA with the same slot), and yeah, I was happy with it once I got it, though both it and Guardian of Faith have the downsides of being stationary. SR has a big AoE, but it also has the downside of affecting friendlies in the area.

AoA obviously can't do the numbers an AoE spell can in the right situations, but it's not concentration, it can't hurt friendlies, enemies can't just avoid it except by not attacking you in melee, and it requires no attack roll by the caster and allows no saving throw to mitigate the damage.

I can't speak for the folks claiming it's OMG AWESOME, but those are some of the factors which may be getting weighed in.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

30 damage and preventing 15 damage (from a 3rd level slot), remember.

15 damage you wouldn't have taken if you had instead delivered a fireball or scorching ray (admittedly, spells that only Infernal warlocks have direct access to.)

Flaming Sphere does 3d6 (Dex save for half) with a 3rd level slot, so it'll usually take some work and several rounds to get it to do big damage, though that multiplies quickly in a crowd situation where you can get it next to several targets. We're only talking three failed saves to average 31.5 damage, but loss of concentration may cut it off early.

Sure. I'm just saying, against a mere two enemies, over IIRC three rounds, that has happened in more than one fight. Similar stuff applies to sickening radiance, though I will admit the very first time I cast it, it was a complete waste because we HAD to skedaddle from that particular fight. Guardian of faith being stationary is not necessarily as much of a problem as it might seem, because of its ridonkulous 8-hour duration. Ironically, I actually had a GoF that managed to affect two unrelated fights, because our opponents fled from the second fight....straight into the guardian, which they had to physically pass in order to escape. They were all 10 or less HP at that point, so it didn't matter if they failed their saves (but we still checked anyway to see if the guardian would last.)

Idiosyncratic uses, sure, but it's just strange to me how other spells get knocked pretty damn hard while armor of Agathys is exalted among spells.

AoA obviously can't do the numbers an AoE spell can in the right situations, but it's not concentration, it can't hurt friendlies, enemies can't just avoid it except by not attacking you in melee, and it requires no attack roll by the caster and allows no saving throw to mitigate the damage.

I can't speak for the folks claiming it's OMG AWESOME, but those are some of the factors which may be getting weighed in.

I can only imagine that it's the combination of great scaling, potential upside if you can get resistance/mitigation, and non-concentration (so you could, for example, pair it with spirit guardians). It still feels like a pretty hard sell for 50% of your per-rest spell action until level 11. As you say, you aren't the guide writers, so you can't really defend their thought processes. It just seems like the spell's value is inflated relative to its stuff.

With the 5.5e rewrite, however, I think I can agree that it's an excellent spell. Pair it with any other major source of THP (which, for example, a high-level Celestial warlock gets!), and now you're talking a very solid source of damage output, and at only 1/3 of your per-rest spells, you're still having two more for other fun things, without any worries of concentration.