D&D (2024) Temp HP - a hidden nerf to druids and others

ECMO3

Legend
Eh. The low HP of wild shaped Druids in 2014 is kind of an illusion, though. If you're reduced to 0 hp, you revert to your normal form and keep taking damage against your real hp. In 99 cases out of 100, that's basically temp hp. 2014 just creates this bizarre mechanic for it.

No it is quite a bit different because you do not change back. We have a Druid in two of my new 2024 games and because you do not revert to Druid form, you can "fight to the death" in your wildshape.

Example from play: Wildshaped into a Giant Eagle and take 30 damage - you don't all of a sudden fall out of the sky. You are still a Giant Eagle.
 
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mellored

Legend
The number of temp HP druids get from WS is pretty low really. It should be double druid level as the standard (if not triple) and then five times for Moon druid. Then have the temp HP vanish when returning to normal form.
Base cleric Channel Divinity heals for roughly 1 HP per levels. So base wild shape giving 1THP seems right.

Life cleric gives 5 HP as an action.
Moon druid is 3THP as a bonus action, plus strong offensive options and possibly even flying.

Remember your AC doesn't drop like it did before. 13+Wis should be close to what you have in human form.

Seeks ok to me.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
One additional point to think about though is that there are various effects that now last "until the tHP run out". So you can extend things like Armor of Agathys or Polymorph, or any of the others, by overlapping a fresh set of tHP on almost used up ones.
 

ezo

Get off my lawn!
Base cleric Channel Divinity heals for roughly 1 HP per levels. So base wild shape giving 1THP seems right.

Life cleric gives 5 HP as an action.
Moon druid is 3THP as a bonus action, plus strong offensive options and possibly even flying.

Remember your AC doesn't drop like it did before. 13+Wis should be close to what you have in human form.

Seeks ok to me.
But it is much less than what you got in 2014. Why increase the MOAR POWER of all the classes but nerf one of key aspects of Druid?

Level 2 druid in 2014 CR 1/4 creatures would give about 10-14 hp typically. Get 2 temp HP by comparison seems pretty lame IMO.

For Moon Druid in 2014 you are looking at 30+ hp for your wild shape form, as where in 2024 you get 9 temp HP? Yippee! :rolleyes:

Since the AC thing is only for Moon Druids, that doesn't help the main class either. It is a nice bump for the Moon Druid, but not enough for having roughly one-third the hp buffer.

Considering flying speeds aren't until 8th level, I don't consider that as many games don't even get that far.

Also, the limitation to 4 forms... oi...
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
One additional point to think about though is that there are various effects that now last "until the tHP run out". So you can extend things like Armor of Agathys or Polymorph, or any of the others, by overlapping a fresh set of tHP on almost used up ones.
I think this is a huge buff to AA (I made a thread about it! :) ) but it's a nerf to polymorph.

Old polymorph, you could stack temp hp on top of their "beast hp". And the beast hp could be healed! The polymorph temp hp can be replenished yes, but it's a lot more awkward. Say the giant ape-ed PC has 40 hp left, and you - a support character - is considering toping them up.
5.0, cast a healing spell on them, and heck cast a temp hp spell/ability on top too!
5.5... you can't heal them. And if you want to use a temp HP effect on them, it has to provide at least 41 temp hp or else you gain nothing. And even if it does... your actual gain in temp hp is not as great, because the temp hp don't stack.
 

Ashrym

Legend
The number of temp HP druids get from WS is pretty low really. It should be double druid level as the standard (if not triple) and then five times for Moon druid. Then have the temp HP vanish when returning to normal form.

To what end? The 2014 druid was a mess of "how many hit points can I turn into?" instead of focusing on the utility wild shape can bring. Now all those hit points that weren't really the point of the ability are back to no longer being a consideration.

The temporary hit points are just a bonus. Adding in that druids no longer get dropped out of wild shape from taking damage exceeding what wild shape provides is an improvement. I don't think druids and wild shape were ever meant to be a big sack if hit points whether real or temporary.

But it is much less than what you got in 2014. Why increase the MOAR POWER of all the classes but nerf one of key aspects of Druid?

The OP sack of hit points was a common discussion point. That's been adjusted.

It's also not the only example of adjustments instead of MOAR POWER. ;-)

Bards lost song of rest, which was worth a good amount of healing and strong at low levels. That's less power.

Bards lost the application of jack of all trades to ability checks and now it only applies to checks with skill proficiencies in which the bard is not proficient. That's quite significantly less.

While it's true that magical secrets allows more spells from other lists to be prepared, the 2024 spell prep table gains spells prepared at a slower rate than the 2014 spells known table for bards to limit the number of those high spells more. The end result is gaining 8 spells from 4 class lists instead of 10 spells from all class lists (6 of which are from secrets and 4 from the bard spell list). There aren't enough significant spells from other lists better than bard spells anyway given the limited spells prepped so the distinction in access is minor compared to the slower access to those higher level spells prepped.

Changes to bardic inspiration didn't make it more powerful. It only became less likely to be lost from not being used. Changes to counter charm didn't make it more powerful. It's just suddenly a situational benefit that might actually get used.

Where the bard did see improvements was in the subclasses that range from minor improvements to major improvements.

OT: Temp hp is a common mechanic just like advantage is a common mechanic. They both become obtainable to the point other methods of obtaining them no longer become required. In the druid's case, wild shape can save other sources the limited resources they might have in producing those thp.
 


ezo

Get off my lawn!
To what end? The 2014 druid was a mess of "how many hit points can I turn into?" instead of focusing on the utility wild shape can bring. Now all those hit points that weren't really the point of the ability are back to no longer being a consideration.
That was never my experience. Wild Shaping was at least 80% used for exploration instead of combat. Only Moon Druids would focus on using it for combat--which was sort of the point.

Of course, they also got nerfed that they cannot heal themselves while in wild shape...

The temporary hit points are just a bonus. Adding in that druids no longer get dropped out of wild shape from taking damage exceeding what wild shape provides is an improvement. I don't think druids and wild shape were ever meant to be a big sack if hit points whether real or temporary.
I disagree. The point was if you wild shaped into a squishy spider to explore the bandit hideout, and were squished, you reverted because your wild shape HP was so low. Having a spider with 50+ hit points is the ridiculous part.

It's also not the only example of adjustments instead of MOAR POWER. ;-)
Adjusting something so it is more useful, etc. is still MOAR POWER.

Bards lost song of rest, which was worth a good amount of healing and strong at low levels. That's less power.
Meh... IME it was an afterthought bard players forgot about as often as they remembered.

Bards lost the application of jack of all trades to ability checks and now it only applies to checks with skill proficiencies in which the bard is not proficient. That's quite significantly less.
And a stupid change to boot! So, now you don't add it to Initiative (no big deal since Initiative is cyclical), but removing it from tool proficiencies, instruments, etc. is moronic, since that is really what the feature should be used for.

While it's true that magical secrets allows more spells from other lists to be prepared, the 2024 spell prep table gains spells prepared at a slower rate than the 2014 spells known table for bards to limit the number of those high spells more. The end result is gaining 8 spells from 4 class lists instead of 10 spells from all class lists (6 of which are from secrets and 4 from the bard spell list). There aren't enough significant spells from other lists better than bard spells anyway given the limited spells prepped so the distinction in access is minor compared to the slower access to those higher level spells prepped.
If you say so... bards aren't something I've bothered to look at really yet.

Changes to bardic inspiration didn't make it more powerful. It only became less likely to be lost from not being used.
Which makes it more powerful since is it not likely to be lost...

Changes to counter charm didn't make it more powerful. It's just suddenly a situational benefit that might actually get used.
So, more useful... more powerful.

Where the bard did see improvements was in the subclasses that range from minor improvements to major improvements.
So, more "improvements" then...?

Working as intended. It was even one of the things called out in the preview article and videos (about 1:45 into this one).
Yeah, so they changed something that worked so it wouldn't screw up other changes they made elsewhere instead of just allowing those other changes to be designed to work with something that already worked. Yeah, great going! :rolleyes:

So I think calling it a hidden nerf is overstating things a bit.
OP's words... not mine. ;)
 

mellored

Legend
But it is much less than what you got in 2014. Why increase the MOAR POWER of all the classes but nerf one of key aspects of Druid?
Paladins smite, nerfed
Monks stunning strike, nerfed
Force cage, nerfed.
Sharpshooter, nerfed.

MOAR POWER didn't really happen. Weak things where improved, strong things where nerfed.

MOAR OPTIONS happened.
For Moon Druid in 2014 you are looking at 30+ hp for your wild shape form, as where in 2024 you get 9 temp HP? Yippee! :rolleyes:
2024 has 21HP +9 THP = 30 total HP for your wild shape form.
+5-ish AC
+1 or 2d8 extra damage
+trading spell slots for more wild shape.
+easier to maintain concentration.
+teleport... for some reason. Doesn't fit the theme IMO, but it's not weak.


If your goal is to be a shape-shifter, then the 2024 moon druid does a better job than 2014.
 


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