D&D (2024) Temp HP - a hidden nerf to druids and others

[Ancalagon]

I've noticed that 5.5 has a LOT of temp hp sources. I've also noticed that a number of "transformation" powers now work with temp hp. Druid wildshape and polymorph are two such examples.

So in 5.0, say you have a moon druid wrecking stuff as some kind of big beast, or you're the rogue with almost no HP left the wizard just polymorphed into a giant ape for a fight. Say you have a good source of temp HP - say an artificer with the healbot turret. Every round, you (and say a fighter fellow PC) get temp HP allowing you to last longer in the fight.

In 5.5... now you already have temp HP, and temp hp doesn't stack. So you can't benefit from temp HP, either from a continuous source during the fight (at least not during the first few rounds), or from a "pre-fight" source (like say inspiring leader).

I also think that the increased ways to generate temp HP is a sort of a nerf to all of these spells/abilities since they don't stack. So if you have a cleric that has the inspiring leader feat, and a world tree barbarian. If a fight starts and everyone has temp hp from the cleric... vitality surge is probably not good for you. And on subsequent rounds it can get awkward. Say it's round 2 and no one got hit in round 1 (it happens!), your life giving force probably won't do much. Or it can also create odd choices. Say you're a wizard, you got dinged and have 4 temp hp left from the cleric. Do you take the 10 temp hp from the barbarian that will only last the fight, or do you keep the 4 temp hp and hope you won't get hit?

It is too soon for me to affirm that this will be a problem. With a year or 2 of play it will become obvious. But it's something to keep an eye on... What I can say however with a fair amount of certainty is that in 5.5, "temp hp giver" is now a minor role, and it's one to keep an eye on. Not only because having temp hp is very nice, but also because it's a role that really doesn't "stack" very well.

 

[Charlaquin]

Probably an intentional choice to compensate for the doubling of most healing spells.

 

[Clint_L]

I am passionate in my dislike of temporary hit points as a mechanic. They are clunky, challenging for inexperienced players (which is a lot of my players), slow down play, and are very often unbalancing one way or the other. If I could remove one thing from the game (after alignment), it would be temporary hit points.

 

[ezo]

I've noticed that 5.5 has a LOT of temp hp sources. I've also noticed that a number of "transformation" powers now work with temp hp. Druid wildshape and polymorph are two such examples.

So in 5.0, say you have a moon druid wrecking stuff as some kind of big beast, or you're the rogue with almost no HP left the wizard just polymorphed into a giant ape for a fight. Say you have a good source of temp HP - say an artificer with the healbot turret. Every round, you (and say a fighter fellow PC) get temp HP allowing you to last longer in the fight.

In 5.5... now you already have temp HP, and temp hp doesn't stack. So you can't benefit from temp HP, either from a continuous source during the fight (at least not during the first few rounds), or from a "pre-fight" source (like say inspiring leader).

I also think that the increased ways to generate temp HP is a sort of a nerf to all of these spells/abilities since they don't stack. So if you have a cleric that has the inspiring leader feat, and a world tree barbarian. If a fight starts and everyone has temp hp from the cleric... vitality surge is probably not good for you. And on subsequent rounds it can get awkward. Say it's round 2 and no one got hit in round 1 (it happens!), your life giving force probably won't do much. Or it can also create odd choices. Say you're a wizard, you got dinged and have 4 temp hp left from the cleric. Do you take the 10 temp hp from the barbarian that will only last the fight, or do you keep the 4 temp hp and hope you won't get hit?

It is too soon for me to affirm that this will be a problem. With a year or 2 of play it will become obvious. But it's something to keep an eye on... What I can say however with a fair amount of certainty is that in 5.5, "temp hp giver" is now a minor role, and it's one to keep an eye on. Not only because having temp hp is very nice, but also because it's a role that really doesn't "stack" very well.

I'm confused. They seem to work exactly as the did in 2014 (or its errata anyway). Temporary hit points have never "stacked". If you current have a source of temporary hp, and a new source can be applied, you choose with of the two sources of temporary hit points you want--your current or the new.

It has always been this way AFAIK. As I understand it, the only nerf to temp HP is some sources have them vanish prior to finishing a long rest...?

Given your example of a cleric with inspiring leader and a barbarian of the world tree. After finishing a rest, the PCs benefit the 8 temp HP (Cleric level 4 + 4 ability modifier). Later, the barbarian (level 4) rages, and must choose to have 4 hp from his rage or keep the 8 from the cleric's inspiring leader. He keeps the 8 temp hp obviously.

On the next turn of the barbarian who raged, chooses to give the fighter the temp HP from life-giving force, equal to 2d6 temp hp. The fighter was hit and so currently only has 4 temp hp remaining from gained by the inspiring leader. Judging 2d6 will likely yield better than 4, the player accepts the temp Hp granted by the barbarian. The lucky player rolls only 12, so his temp HP goes from 4 to 12.

The battle ends without the fighter being hit again, and because the life-giving force specifies it ends when the barbarian's rage ends, the fighter loses the 12 temp HP immediately.

Meanwhile, the barbarian (who kept the 8 temp HP from inspiring leader) was never hurt, so still has 8 and will keep them until he finishes a long rest.

 

[jeffh]

I'm confused. They seem to work exactly as the did in 2014 (or its errata anyway).

No-one is saying temporary hit points changed. The nerf is that Wild Shape, Polymorph etc now give temp HP, instead of outright replacing your hp with those of the creature you Wild Shaped into. Since temp HP don't stack, this makes buffing Wild Shaped druids etc much harder to do effectively.

 

[ezo]

No-one is saying temporary hit points changed. The nerf is that Wild Shape, Polymorph etc now give temp HP, instead of outright replacing your hp with those of the creature you Wild Shaped into. Since temp HP don't stack, this makes buffing Wild Shaped druids etc much harder to do effectively.

Oh... I guess that wasn't what I was reading from the OP. When the OP complained about temp HP not stacking in 2024, it never stacked in 2014 either.

 

[Kobold Stew]

There's nothing hidden about this -- it is explicitly doing exactly what the change wants to do, which is to reduce the over-powered nature of Moon Druids in the 2014. rules. I've not played with Polymorph enough to feel I have a complete sense of how it worked, but my sense is that it's doing exactly what it should as well.

It's a change, and it's a nerf, but in both cases I think it's a good change, and there's nothing hidden about it. Wildshape is different now, and it's better* than it was.

* for certain definitions of better, admittedly. But it includes the one that I use, for overall fun at the table.

 

[Ancalagon]

There's nothing hidden about this -- it is explicitly doing exactly what the change wants to do, which is to reduce the over-powered nature of Moon Druids in the 2014. rules.

It might have been obvious to you, but in all the new class review videos I've seen, no one has mentioned how the switch to temp hp was a nerf because it meant you couldn't benefit from other sources of temp hp as well as previously.

I'm not saying I'm the first person to bring this up (maybe I am!), but it isn't something that seems to be that obvious to everyone.

I fully agree with you that moon druid needed changing, that being said. Time will tell if it worked out or not.

 

[Kobold Stew]

It might have been obvious to you, but in all the new class review videos I've seen, no one has mentioned how the switch to temp hp was a nerf because it meant you couldn't benefit from other sources of temp hp as well as previously.

I'm not saying I'm the first person to bring this up (maybe I am!), but it isn't something that seems to be that obvious to everyone.

Fair enough.

There was a big thread about it here back in February, much of which focused on the nerfs (link).

 

[Ancalagon]

Fair enough.

There was a big thread about it here back in February, much of which focused on the nerfs (link).

... I don't want to read a 28 page thread about this to tease out if someone pointed out that not being able to benefit from other sources as easily in wild form was a nerf.