D&D (2024) Agathys forever

[Baron Opal II]

I don't think that he's arguing that the spell ends, rather that you don't get the full benefit of the temp HP from more than one source.

 

[Ancalagon]

You don't lose the cold damage.
You lose the 25THP.

I.e.
You have 100HP + 25 THP, take 50 damage, and polymorph for another 100 THP = 225 total HP

If you gave 100HP + 25 THP, then polymorph for 100 THP = 200 total HP.

You deal more damage, but can take less.

ah, thank you for elaborating, I see your point now.

It still is quite the buff to the spell.

 

[ECMO3]

So armor of agathys is an interesting spell. It's both offence and defense in one, so it can't be too good at either or it's overpowered. It's always been best when comboed with something else which allows you to "stretch" the spell, to inflict more damage with it - have the spell "fire" several times, in other words. For example one of my players had a warlock 5/fighter 3 and would use the parry maneuver to preserve the AA's temp hp so he could inflict the AA's damage repeatedly (it worked well!). But that was about all you could do - the temp hp of AA couldn't be recharged.

But the rules for AA have changed!

From: "If a creature hits you with a melee attack while you have these hit points, the creature takes 5 cold damage."

to the new 2024: "If a creature hits you with a melee attack roll before the spell ends, the creature takes 5 Cold damage. The spell ends early if you have no Temporary Hit Points."

So, based on the reading of the new spell, especially when combined with reading the old spell, it seems you can now recharge the AA's temp HP! And 2024 has plenty of potent ways to do that.

RAW I don't think this is true (see red underlined above). PHB page 29 has some specific wording on temp hit points that to me means this does not work:

"If you have Temporary Hit Points and receive more of them, you decide whether to keep the ones you have or to gain the new ones."

So AOA at 5th level and I have 25 temp hit points. I get damaged for 20 and now I have 5 left. The friendly Bard uses Mantle of Inspiration bonus action and gives the party 11.

Now I can do two things after the Bard bonus action- I can "keep the ones I have" with AOA (i.e. the 5 remaining from AOA) or I can "gain the new ones" which are the 11 the bard game.

If I did not "keep the ones I have" then I no longer "have these hit points" as defined by the AOA spell because they were replaced with the new temp hit points I got. I have the new temp hit points instead.

The same holds true for additional castings of AOA.

 

[Ancalagon]

RAW I don't think this is true (see red underlined above). PHB page 29 has some specific wording on temp hit points that to me means this does not work:

"If you have Temporary Hit Points and receive more of them, you decide whether to keep the ones you have or to gain the new ones."

So AOA at 5th level and I have 25 temp hit points. I get damaged for 20 and now I have 5 left. The friendly Bard uses Mantle of Inspiration bonus action and gives the party 11.

Now I can do two things after the Bard bonus action- I can "keep the ones I have" with AOA (i.e. the 5 remaining from AOA) or I can "gain the new ones" which are the 11 the bard game.

If I did not "keep the ones I have" then I no longer "have these hit points" as defined by the AOA spell because they were replaced with the new temp hit points I got. I have the new temp hit points instead.

The same holds true for additional castings of AOA.

The language you've used undermines your argument. "have these hit points" That's 5.0 language. 5.5 AoA does not use those words. It merely says "The spell ends early if you have no Temporary Hit Points.". Not these temp hp.

If you were arguing about 5.0 you would be correct.

(edit: typo)

 

[Ancalagon]

@Tales and Chronicles pointed out in another thread how the Fiend patron warlock is amazing now with AoA

 

[Zardnaar]

Seems to me like a significant improvement. I never used 5.0's armor of Agathys for that reason; it's simply too fragile, especially at higher levels, especially because you have to be hit by a melee attack, not simply attacked by an opponent. It only triggers when you are going to take damage either way, and frankly, shaving off only 5 hit points from a single attack is not worth one of your two spell slots. By the time it's actually good, you have far better choices. I genuinely don't understand why optimization guides love this spell so much.

You can kind of abuse it iirc with things like stoneskin.

 

[Kurotowa]

@Tales and Chronicles pointed out in another thread how the Fiend patron warlock is amazing now with AoA

It's variable, depending on the DM's encounter design tastes. If your DM throws minion mobs and enemy squads at the PCs, a Fiend Warlock will have lots of chances to trigger their extra temp HP. If the DM leans more towards fewer higher CR enemies, your solo mini-bosses and small teams of heavy bruisers, there's going to be a lot fewer chances to trigger that Fiend trait and AoA might get burned through in just a couple of hits.

That's why it's really hard to make blanket statements about what's weak or strong. The play experience from one table to the next has such a wide range of variation.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

You can kind of abuse it iirc with things like stoneskin.

Sure, but now to get the full benefit you're expecting another person's 4th level spell.

Again, I'm not saying it's a bad spell. It just seems like the guide-making community goes absolutely bugnuts for it...when it's really just pretty decent. Maybe the issue is that Warlocks don't have a lot of competition for their 1st level spell choices? But like even arms of Hadar is pretty good so long as you have at least two targets (even if both make their saves, 2d6 = 7 is better than flat 5 almost all the time) and clearly superior on three (even if all make their saves, you'd have to roll 3 or 4 on 4d6 to not do more damage). I fully admit that armor of Agathys scales better, doubly so if you can make it last for two hits, and that a portion of my issue is rooted in thinking of it as a 1st level spell rather than an auto-scaling spell.

I just...still don't see the OMG THIS IS THE BEST WARLOCK SPELL EVAR, which I have legitimately seen from multiple guides at this point. E.g. one of the more prominent guides describes it thus:

Exclusive to warlocksand a truly excellent defensive option, this both protects you and harmsenemies. The scaling is fantastic, too, so it remains powerful and effectiveat every spell level. At high levels this may do more damage than castingoffensive spells, especially against foes that make numerous attacks withrelatively low damage. However, it requires that you be attacked and damagedwith melee attacks, so if your AC is too high or if you fight at range itwon’t work, and if you’re standing behind a defender it won’t matter.

It just seems like an overblowing of how good the spell is. It is good (and 5.5e makes it quite a bit better). It's not THAT good.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure, but now to get the full benefit you're expecting another person's 4th level spell.

Again, I'm not saying it's a bad spell. It just seems like the guide-making community goes absolutely bugnuts for it...when it's really just pretty decent. Maybe the issue is that Warlocks don't have a lot of competition for their 1st level spell choices? But like even arms of Hadar is pretty good so long as you have at least two targets (even if both make their saves, 2d6 = 7 is better than flat 5 almost all the time) and clearly superior on three (even if all make their saves, you'd have to roll 3 or 4 on 4d6 to not do more damage). I fully admit that armor of Agathys scales better, doubly so if you can make it last for two hits, and that a portion of my issue is rooted in thinking of it as a 1st level spell rather than an auto-scaling spell.

I just...still don't see the OMG THIS IS THE BEST WARLOCK SPELL EVAR, which I have legitimately seen from multiple guides at this point. E.g. one of the more prominent guides describes it thus:



It just seems like an overblowing of how good the spell is. It is good (and 5.5e makes it quite a bit better). It's not THAT good.

Agreed. The one thing armor of Agathys has going for it is that it isn’t concentration and last for a while. Its best use case is that it can be prebuffed. But even then you have to be targeted and hit in melee before it’s really valuable. Using an action for it in combat is almost always a bad option, because enemies can ignore you after casting it or miss you entirely.

In terms of value it’s rarely worth the slot level. But in a 5MWD where value per slot is less important than number of slots you can use its great. Coupled with higher monster count making hits on you much more likely and it can be quite good in that scenario.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Armor of Agathys is an excellent spell for a bladelock if you're able to cast it before combat starts. The THP adds some much needed durability for a melee warrior with a d8 hit dice, and the no-action damage can add up. A bladelock is going to spend his actions on weapon attacks rather than casting, so being down one spell slot is tolerable.