D&D (2024) Temp HP - a hidden nerf to druids and others

ezo

Get off my lawn!
Paladins smite, nerfed
Monks stunning strike, nerfed
Force cage, nerfed.
Sharpshooter, nerfed.
So, they nerfed things a lot of groups were already nerfing?? Nice to know they listened at least somewhat.

MOAR POWER didn't really happen. Weak things where improved, strong things where nerfed.

MOAR OPTIONS happened.
MOAR POWER has been happening since Tasha's... I think we all know that. Compare the bulk of the classes to the 2014 equivalent and most of the time the new version is simply more powerful. Any one who argues against that is only fooling themselves.

2024 has 21HP +9 THP = 30 total HP for your wild shape form.
Great, so I go from 37 for wild shape (more than you already have as both DRUID and WILD SHAPE in 2024) plus my base 21 (or whatever) for being a 3rd-level druid. Losing nearly half the HP doesn't seem great.

+5-ish AC
I'd argue more like +2 to 3ish at 3rd level.

+1 or 2d8 extra damage
From what exactly? (Seriously, I don't see anything about that...)

+trading spell slots for more wild shape.
Like running out was ever really an issue...?

+easier to maintain concentration.
Concentration on what??

+teleport... for some reason. Doesn't fit the theme IMO, but it's not weak.
At it is at 10th level! Good luck getting it since 90% of game never make it that far anyway...

If your goal is to be a shape-shifter, then the 2024 moon druid does a better job than 2014.
If you feel so, that is your preference.

They can heal even better now.
1d8 up to 2d8+Wis (cure wounds)
Admittedly, I did miss they can use the Wild Shape spells while in Wild Shape form... so they can heal themselves, but now it is their action instead of a bonus action?

So the trade off you can heal yourself more (but not the depleted temp HP) but can't attack, disengage, or other things since you are sacrificing your action. Seems a bit less useful to me personally.

Which, of course, cure wounds is now 2d8 instead of 1d8... MOAR POWER!!! :ROFLMAO:
 

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mellored

Legend
So, they nerfed things a lot of groups were already nerfing?? Nice to know they listened at least somewhat.
And people where already nerfing moon druids CR, and limiting the number of beast you could turn into.
I'd argue more like +2 to 3ish at 3rd level
Brown bear had 34 HP and 11 AC.
2024 Moon Druid brown bear has 30 mixed HP and 16AC.
So you can stay in beast form longer.
You can shape shift more often.
You can do more things while in beast form (like dip monk 1 for a bonus action unarmed attack).
From what exactly? (Seriously, I don't see anything about that...)
In addition, you can cast the spells from this feature while you are in Wild Shape form.

Circle of the Moon Spells
Druid Level Prepared Spells
3 Cure Wounds, Moonbeam, Starry Wisp
5 Conjure Animals
7 Fount of Moonlight
9 Mass Cure Wounds

Cure Wounds is 2d8+Wis.
Like running out was ever really an issue...?
So your saying that you where never knocked out of wildshape?
You where a full powered martial without needing to spend any spell slots?

Doesn't that seem a bit OP?
Concentration on what?
On spiked growth perhaps.
Maybe call lightning.
Or Flaming Sphere.
Summon beast is on theme.
Healing spirit if you want.
If you feel so, that is your preference.
You can spend more time as a beast.
It just cost your spell slots.
Admittedly, I did miss they can use the Wild Shape spells while in Wild Shape form... so they can heal themselves, but now it is their action instead of a bonus action?
A level 5 moon druid can use a level 1 slot and a bonus action to get 15 THP, which is more than 1d8.

Or Action to heal for 2d8+Wis.
 
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Ashrym

Legend
That was never my experience. Wild Shaping was at least 80% used for exploration instead of combat. Only Moon Druids would focus on using it for combat--which was sort of the point.

Except they were using wild shape as a sack of hit point and getting knocked out of wild shape while triggering the "when at 0 hit point" triggers and events. Not getting knocked out of wild shape makes using wild shape more effective.

Of course, they also got nerfed that they cannot heal themselves while in wild shape...

Moon druids have 3 times the thp as other druids from wild shape, added spells prepped, added a better AC mechanism, added a CON save bonus, added teleportation, and added radiant damage. They can heal after the fight.

I disagree. The point was if you wild shaped into a squishy spider to explore the bandit hideout, and were squished, you reverted because your wild shape HP was so low. Having a spider with 50+ hit points is the ridiculous part.

Why was that the point? I thought the point was to be able to scout the bandit hideout without getting caught and safely make it back. The point isn't to get squished in the first place. ;-)

To coin a movie phrase, "So you make plans that fail?" ;-)

Adjusting something so it is more useful, etc. is still MOAR POWER.

Being able to use something more often doesn't make something more powerful. EG +1d6 three times a day is still +1d6 three times a day regardless of having more chance to use that +1d6 three times a day.

MOAR POWER is something that needs examined on a case by case basis.

Meh... IME it was an afterthought bard players forgot about as often as they remembered.

That's a rationalization to ignore the point. Song of Rest > no Song of Rest. While someone might forget an ability that's there no one can use an ability that no longer exists, and it wasn't just an afterthought for everybody.

And a stupid change to boot! So, now you don't add it to Initiative (no big deal since Initiative is cyclical), but removing it from tool proficiencies, instruments, etc. is moronic, since that is really what the feature should be used for.

Is it a stupid change, though? That depends on the intent of the ability. The flip side of your argument might be that it was a flat bonus to many things that might not have been intended.

Jack of All Trades was a great ability because it applied to so many rolls that normally didn't get a bonus. It was definitely a much better ability in the 2014 version, but restricting it might be one of those things where it's been restricted intentionally because of how much it was applied. Nerfs happed. Now bards casting Dispel Magic no longer have that bonus (which I believe they should have), but did bards really need a bonus to everything?

If it's meant to be a minor skill benefit then it's now working as intended better regardless of being a nerf to the ability.

If you say so... bards aren't something I've bothered to look at really yet.

Magical Secrets is still an excellent ability. It's just a bit frustrating that the 2014 version was built into the spells known as a bonus when the 2024 version is built into the spells prepped as an existing part of those spells prepped.

The loss of access to spells most bards were never taking from other lists is practically insignificant given where the best spell choices are found anyway. The only way to keep up with the access to higher level spells prepped now is to give up lower level spells, which wasn't as true in the 2014 version

The way it's worded also precludes adding cantrips with Magical Secrets, but the Magical Discoveries ability of the Lore Collage specifically allows for adding cantrips still.

Which makes it more powerful since is it not likely to be lost...

That doesn't make it more powerful. It's still just a d6, d8, d10, or d12 bonus that can be used once by the person with the Bardic Inspiration. When it's used within 2 minutes or 22 minutes doesn't change that.

So, more useful... more powerful.

No, because it's still just a situational benefit. The 2024 version applies to a single save for one person using a reaction. The 2014 version applies to all saves within 30' range at the cost of an action.

All allies is more powerful than one ally, and the 2014 version came a level sooner too. The issue is in the action economy because the ability itself wasn't something most players would spend an action on given the situational nature of such an ability.

Counter Charm didn't become more powerful. Technically it's less powerful. What it did was become more streamlined within the action economy the players are willing to use for such an ability.

So, more "improvements" then...?

Yes, there are improvements within the subclasses to go with the not improvements in the base class. That's kind of the point. Not everything was a buff or intended to buff classes. Some changes were buffs, some were nerfs, some were just streamlining abilities, and some changes were more of a side-grade.
 

ezo

Get off my lawn!
And people where already nerfing moon druids CR, and limiting the number of beast you could turn into.
Really? I never saw that... YMMV, of course.

Brown bear had 34 HP and 11 AC.
2024 Moon Druid brown bear has 30 mixed HP and 16AC.
So you can stay in beast form longer.
You can shape shift more often.
You can do more things while in beast form (like dip monk 1 for a bonus action unarmed attack).
Dire Wolf has more HP and 14 AC...
2014 Moon Druid Dire Wolf has 37 wild shape HP (more than your total for 2024 30 mixed HP) and an AC only two lower... So even if the 37 dire wolf hp is gone, you still get all your normal 21 druid hp. All told, nearly double your 2024 mixed hp.

So, I would argue whether or not you are actually going to be in wild shape longer... At best, it is probably a push.

Yep, spend a spell slot and wild shape again... MOAR POWER!!! lol

If you dip in 2014 monk, you can still bonus action for an unarmed attack... nothing new there.

In addition, you can cast the spells from this feature while you are in Wild Shape form.

Circle of the Moon Spells
Druid Level Prepared Spells
3 Cure Wounds, Moonbeam, Starry Wisp
5 Conjure Animals
7 Fount of Moonlight
9 Mass Cure Wounds

Cure Wounds is 2d8+Wis.
What does any of that have to do with when you wrote +1 or 2d8 extra damage.

So your saying that you where never knocked out of wildshape?
You where a full powered martial without needing to spend any spell slots?
No, I never said anything like that. I said running out of wild shapes was never really an issue.... short rest recovery and all. ;)

On spiked growth perhaps.
Maybe call lightning.
Or Flaming Sphere.
Summon beast is on theme.
Healing spirit if you want.
Concentration checks are a breeze 90+% of the time. You rarely have to beat a DC 10... And even if you lose one of those spells, I doubt it will be the end of the world.

But you do realize all these things are just more ways Druids are getting "moar power" right???

You can spend more time as a beast.
It just cost your spell slots.
I guess you could but honestly at half an hour per level do you really need to??? I mean, at 5th level that is 2.5 hours per use, or 5 hours between short rests--which IME you typically get two a day, so in general by then you could be in wild shape nearly all the waking hours of the day...

Day begins, 5 hours
Short rest, 1 hour
Another 5 hours
Short rest, 1 hour
Another 5 hours (we're up to 17 now...)
Long rest finishes the 24 hours and repeat.

A level 5 moon druid can use a level 1 slot and a bonus action to get 5 THP, which is more than 1d8.
How...? (NM... so just assuming wild shape for another 5 THP... got it.)

Or Action to heal for 2d8+Wis.
Yeah, we covered that.
 
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ezo

Get off my lawn!
Except they were using wild shape as a sack of hit point and getting knocked out of wild shape while triggering the "when at 0 hit point" triggers and events. Not getting knocked out of wild shape makes using wild shape more effective.
Except you have fewer HP than the wild shape alone would have.

Dire Wolf 37 hp. 3rd-level 2024 druid (21) + 9 temp HP = 30... I'll take the 37.

Moon druids have 3 times the thp as other druids from wild shape, added spells prepped, added a better AC mechanism, added a CON save bonus, added teleportation, and added radiant damage. They can heal after the fight.
More, more, more, MOAR!!!

Why was that the point? I thought the point was to be able to scout the bandit hideout without getting caught and safely make it back. The point isn't to get squished in the first place. ;-)

To coin a movie phrase, "So you make plans that fail?" ;-)
The fact you quoted that god-awful movie (I actually had to walk out on it---that is pretty bad!) pretty much ends this disucssion for my part. Enjoy 2024 and cheers. :)
 
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mellored

Legend
So even if the 37 dire wolf hp is gone, you still get all your normal 21 druid hp. All told, nearly double your 2024 mixed hp.
Which was OP.

You could have the same damage and HP as a fighter, plus the HP and all the spells of a druid.
Yep, spend a spell slot and wild shape again... MOAR POWER!!! lol
Less power.

You don't get both massive HP and full spell casting anymore.

Now you get massive HP at the cost of full spell casting.
What does any of that have to do with when you wrote +1 or 2d8 extra damage.
Level 7 and level 15 of the base class.
Concentration checks are a breeze 90+% of the time. You rarely have to beat a DC 10... And even if you lose one of those spells, I doubt it will be the end of the world.
If you need to transform back to cast spiked growth again, that's a loss of a turn.
But you do realize all these things are just more ways Druids are getting "moar power" right???
More options. Trading spells for more time in wild shape.

You said yourself it was nerfed.
As a Bonus Action, you shape-shift into a Beast...

if you have no uses of Wild Shape left, you can give yourself one use by expending a spell slot (no action required).

You gain a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to three times your Druid level.

3*5 = 15 THP (and you can swap forms).
 

ezo

Get off my lawn!
Which was OP.
Not at all. No one who ever played a moon druid in any game I saw ever seemed OP by any stretch of the imagination. All it ever did was make the Moon Druid a reliable combatant, certainly no better than a fighter of the same level.

Regardless, all of this is moot. You won't convince me it was a good change, which is immaterial since I'll never play 2024 anyway... I was simply supporting the OP, which I still do.
 

mellored

Legend
Not at all. No one who ever played a moon druid in any game I saw ever seemed OP by any stretch of the imagination. All it ever did was make the Moon Druid a reliable combatant, certainly no better than a fighter of the same level.
A fighter who has full casting slots.
 


Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Not at all. No one who ever played a moon druid in any game I saw ever seemed OP by any stretch of the imagination. All it ever did was make the Moon Druid a reliable combatant, certainly no better than a fighter of the same level.
I had complaints from the player of a paladin (!), not a weak class, that they felt superfluous with a moon druid.

They are commonly called OP at lower levels on this board.

Any truthful discussion that the 2014 moon druid wasn't at least very powerful if not OP comes from ignorance.

NOTE: I am not trying to convince you the 2024 change was good or bad, just calling out that 2014 Moon Druid is considered at the top of the power curve of classes since you seem to be unaware. Or at least claim it can't "by any stretch of the imagination".
 

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