D&D (2024) Temp HP - a hidden nerf to druids and others

[mellored]

this makes buffing Wild Shaped druids etc much harder to do effectively.

Don't know about that.

Since you can stay in combat forn longer, haste, bless, greater invisibly, aid, crusaders mantle all work better.

+Wis to concentration helps maintain your own buff.

And since you have higher AC, getting any extra THP mid battle will last longer.

Only inspiring leader and other pre-battle TBP is nerfed. Though you could have a battle and still be in beast form at the end of a short rest, saving your wild shape for mid battle. So not worthless.

 

[Gorck]

... I don't want to read a 28 page thread about this to tease out if someone pointed out that not being able to benefit from other sources as easily in wild form was a nerf.

The first mention of Wild Shaped Druids getting THP was in UA 8, circa November, 27, 2023. So we've known about it for roughly 10 months now. That would explain why the community as a whole doesn't see this as new information.

 

[ezo]

The number of temp HP druids get from WS is pretty low really. It should be double druid level as the standard (if not triple) and then five times for Moon druid. Then have the temp HP vanish when returning to normal form.

 

[Will Brandiman]

The number of temp HP druids get from WS is pretty low really. It should be double druid level as the standard (if not triple) and then five times for Moon druid. Then have the temp HP vanish when returning to normal form.

As I was reading through the thread I was thinking literally exactly this ^^, with the caveat that I've not played a moon druid 2024 yet so don't know for certain. The number of temp hp does seem laughably low. Even at 20th level, a moon druid will get 60 temp hp, which will maybe last one round?

 

[ezo]

As I was reading through the thread I was thinking literally exactly this ^^, with the caveat that I've not played a moon druid 2024 yet so don't know for certain. The number of temp hp does seem laughably low. Even at 20th level, a moon druid will get 60 temp hp, which will maybe last one round?

Two if you're lucky...

 

[ECMO3]

I've noticed that 5.5 has a LOT of temp hp sources. I've also noticed that a number of "transformation" powers now work with temp hp. Druid wildshape and polymorph are two such examples.

So in 5.0, say you have a moon druid wrecking stuff as some kind of big beast, or you're the rogue with almost no HP left the wizard just polymorphed into a giant ape for a fight. Say you have a good source of temp HP - say an artificer with the healbot turret. Every round, you (and say a fighter fellow PC) get temp HP allowing you to last longer in the fight.

In 5.5... now you already have temp HP, and temp hp doesn't stack. So you can't benefit from temp HP, either from a continuous source during the fight (at least not during the first few rounds), or from a "pre-fight" source (like say inspiring leader).

I also think that the increased ways to generate temp HP is a sort of a nerf to all of these spells/abilities since they don't stack. So if you have a cleric that has the inspiring leader feat, and a world tree barbarian. If a fight starts and everyone has temp hp from the cleric... vitality surge is probably not good for you. And on subsequent rounds it can get awkward. Say it's round 2 and no one got hit in round 1 (it happens!), your life giving force probably won't do much. Or it can also create odd choices. Say you're a wizard, you got dinged and have 4 temp hp left from the cleric. Do you take the 10 temp hp from the barbarian that will only last the fight, or do you keep the 4 temp hp and hope you won't get hit?

It is too soon for me to affirm that this will be a problem. With a year or 2 of play it will become obvious. But it's something to keep an eye on... What I can say however with a fair amount of certainty is that in 5.5, "temp hp giver" is now a minor role, and it's one to keep an eye on. Not only because having temp hp is very nice, but also because it's a role that really doesn't "stack" very well.

I have not seen it as a big difference in play. Some groups use a lot of methods of giving the group temp hit points, others rarely use them.

I also don't think this is something new. Artificers have always been a thing, Inspiring leader has always been a thing, Mantle of Inspiration has too and on the other side High level Rangers as well as Bladesingers and Warlocks using upcast False Life, Form of Dread or Armor Of Agathys etc always benefited less from those temp hit points than the Fighter and Rogue in your example, so this is not really that new IME.

On the Druid, Warlock and Wizard specifically though I will also note the effect these things have on a familiar or summoned creature. While Inspiring Leader might nerf my Wildshape or Polymorph spell, a 10th level cleric using it on a party takes the Druid's bat from 1 hit point to 16 and the Warlock's Imp from 10 to 25. Similarly a Glamour Bard handing out temp hit points with Mantle of Inspiration hands them out to 5 targets, so she can leave off the Druid and instead target the Druid's summoned Elemental Spirit instead.

 

[dave2008]

It might have been obvious to you, but in all the new class review videos I've seen, no one has mentioned how the switch to temp hp was a nerf because it meant you couldn't benefit from other sources of temp hp as well as previously.

It was mentioned during the playtest quite a bit IIRC. That may be why your nor hearing much about it now, since it was discussed a long time ago.

 

[Clint_L]

The first mention of Wild Shaped Druids getting THP was in UA 8, circa November, 27, 2023. So we've known about it for roughly 10 months now. That would explain why the community as a whole doesn't see this as new information.

Druids are the big failure of DnD2024. WotC was iterating on them right to the last possible minute, never got great feedback, finally claimed, in very cagey language, that the final version had just squeaked past their magical 70% threshold, and had a print deadline to make, so this is what we've got.

Moon druids, in particular, are terrible. The old version had the problem of being badly OP for three levels, and inconsistent after that. So it definitely needed work. The fix is a subclass that is worthless at all levels. So....GG?

The fundamental problem is the the druid does not deliver on the druid class fantasy: being a badass shapeshifter. Like the one in, you know, the D&D movie that just came out. Instead, they are a hodgepodge magic using but also maybe melee oriented kinda okay shapeshifter with clunky rules that try to split the difference between the template version that the designers clearly preferred but players hated, and the specific beast version that the designers clearly detest.

They're a mess. And they are horrific to try to teach to new players. They are the only class that I am considering excluding in their 2024 iteration. The 2014 version is much better. And the 2014 version is not very good. WotC has never really got a handle on this class. It's because they are stuck with the baggage of the D&D druid, when the class fantasy has become much more akin to the World of Warcraft one.

Edit: also, I really hate the impact of the new rules on the game story. When you try to infiltrate by wild shaping into, say, a teeny spider your HP actually go up, which is both counterintuitive and LAME. Risk is FUN. It's FUN when the player has to be super careful and creative because any damage taken in a weak form will drop them out of wildshape.

 

[ECMO3]

Edit: also, I really hate the impact of the new rules on the game story. When you try to infiltrate by wild shaping into, say, a teeny spider your HP actually go up, which is both counterintuitive and LAME. Risk is FUN. It's FUN when the player has to be super careful and creative because any damage taken in a weak form will drop them out of wildshape.

Yeah and when the gaurd steps on the spider it is still a spider and still alive as opposed to turning into a druid.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Edit: also, I really hate the impact of the new rules on the game story. When you try to infiltrate by wild shaping into, say, a teeny spider your HP actually go up, which is both counterintuitive and LAME. Risk is FUN. It's FUN when the player has to be super careful and creative because any damage taken in a weak form will drop them out of wildshape.

Eh. The low HP of wild shaped Druids in 2014 is kind of an illusion, though. If you're reduced to 0 hp, you revert to your normal form and keep taking damage against your real hp. In 99 cases out of 100, that's basically temp hp. 2014 just creates this bizarre mechanic for it.

The only "risk" is from exactly abilities that say you die immediately (or similar) if they reduce you to 0 hp (or power words). Which is almost nothing in the game. You can very easily go multiple campaigns and never encounter such an ability at all. Further, the "risk" never felt fair. It felt like the rules were just not accounting for wild shape's bizarre mechanics interacting with abilities that trigger on dropping the target, rather than it being some design intent. It certainly doesn't feel like a balancing mechanism.

If anything, Druid 2024 is a reversion to how it worked in 3e and earlier editions.