D&D (2024) Agathys forever

[Stormonu]

Definately looking into for doing a Druid/Warlock. Armor of Agathys + Wild Shape could be interesting.

 

[mellored]

Definately looking into for doing a Druid/Warlock. Armor of Agathys + Wild Shape could be interesting.

Will their THP survive a full round?

I know wild shape can renew it, but if you run out on round 1, AoA runs out too.

 

[Blue]

Simply put, while I recognize the value here (if you can get 30 damage from a 3rd-level spell slot, that's pretty solid), I don't see the gushing appeal, where this spell is rated as almost universally "excellent," while other spells with similar limitations aren't. Frex, the Celestial patron's guardian of faith is ranked as barely passable, despite being 60-70 damage so long as enemies do in fact move within 10' of the guardian (meaning, a 25' wide corridor)--and whether enemies pass or fail their save, they still take damage, plus the guardian keeps going if enemies pass their saves.

I guess the optimization guides are expecting you to pair it with other sources of non-AC damage mitigation, so that the THP last longer? It still always seemed like a risky bet. That said, I think I may have under-valued it somewhat because I thought you dealt damage equal to the THP you currently have, rather than a fixed 5 (times slot level) every hit.

For comparison though, I have an 8th level Warlock right now, so I don't quite have access to the maximum level spell slots and am still working with just the two you start with. My flaming sphere and sickening radiance have both done far, far more than 40 damage from a single casting. Admittedly, that is with concentration...but the point still stands that the slot usage is simply more efficient.

How often do you cast flaming sphere or sickening radiance before combat? You comparing things with (a) an action in combat, (b) Concentration, and (c) ignore the tHP which is big for a warlock.

I can certainly see why this is a good spell, one worth having on hand. But I don't see why it is so effusively, overwhelmingly praised as being OMG AWESOME. It's good. It's not THAT good.

Everything up there says you are evaluating it as a damage dealing spell, which seems to be misleading you from the value of the spell.

It's will give you scaling (warlock loves scaling) tHP without Concentration with a duration that will likely last until they tHP are used up or you refresh your slot, that you set up well before combat so it takes no actions, and it has the additional bonus of being a disincentive for others to attack you in melee since they will also take retributive damage.

You need to evaluate it including it's strong defensive component a primary part of the spell, and then you need to compare the damage to action-less, Concentration-less damage. Hellish Rebuke is closer, though that still takes your Reaction and a slot that only provides the damage, with no possibility of the damage lasting for multiple attacks.

 

[mellored]

How often do you cast flaming sphere or sickening radiance before combat? You comparing things with (a) an action in combat, (b) Concentration, and (c) ignore the tHP which is big for a warlock.

Your also assuming you get melee attacked
Instead of range attacking the cleric.

 

[Ancalagon]

Keep in mind THP doesn't stack, and the spell ends when it runs out.

So while you get 157THP.
You "loose" the 25 you had.

Also, it that doesn't work against ranged attacks or dragons breath.


Still a good combo, but not quite as potent as it might first seem.

I do not agree with your first point. The spell says "The spell ends early if you have no Temporary Hit Points." When you get more temp HP from another source, yes they do not stack, they replace the existing temp HP. There is no point where you have "no temp HP".
If you want to rule it that way it's up to you, but I don't think it's either RAW or RAI.

As far as the spell not inflicting cold damage vs attacks at range and AOEs effect, that has always been the case.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

How often do you cast flaming sphere or sickening radiance before combat? You comparing things with (a) an action in combat, (b) Concentration, and (c) ignore the tHP which is big for a warlock.


Everything up there says you are evaluating it as a damage dealing spell, which seems to be misleading you from the value of the spell.

It's will give you scaling (warlock loves scaling) tHP without Concentration with a duration that will likely last until they tHP are used up or you refresh your slot, that you set up well before combat so it takes no actions, and it has the additional bonus of being a disincentive for others to attack you in melee since they will also take retributive damage.

You need to evaluate it including it's strong defensive component a primary part of the spell, and then you need to compare the damage to action-less, Concentration-less damage. Hellish Rebuke is closer, though that still takes your Reaction and a slot that only provides the damage, with no possibility of the damage lasting for multiple attacks.

Okay. I don't personally consider that a terribly strong defense. Maybe that's my issue. Five points every other level isn't bad, but it isn't amazing. I would never pre-cast this spell either. I can't be sure I would have it for long enough, even with an hour duration. I've had plenty of adventuring days where the slot would be far more valuable than the THP, you can just ask Hussar.

 

[mellored]

I do not agree with your first point. The spell says "The spell ends early if you have no Temporary Hit Points." When you get more temp HP from another source, yes they do not stack, they replace the existing temp HP. There is no point where you have "no temp HP".
If you want to rule it that way it's up to you, but I don't think it's either RAW or RAI.

Right. They don't stack.

So you cast AoA and get 25THP.
Then you cast polymorph and "lose", replacing it with 157.

So you never benefit from the AoA temporary hit points. 25 tHP is lost.

 

[Blue]

Your also assuming you get melee attacked
Instead of range attacking the cleric.

I did point out it's defensive as a primary use. I even called the disinsentive to attack the warlock in melee "a bonus". I can still point out how other disinsentive spells like Hellish Rebuke take more resources without compromising that.

Okay. I don't personally consider that a terribly strong defense. Maybe that's my issue. Five points every other level isn't bad, but it isn't amazing. I would never pre-cast this spell either.

For a spell with a whole hour duration, never casting it before combat is entirely a you problem. You've admitted that others value this highly, and you don't understand why. You may wish to consider that your assumptions about using this spell are what are separates you from others, and their differing usage is what makes it so good.

I can't be sure I would have it for long enough, even with an hour duration. I've had plenty of adventuring days where the slot would be far more valuable than the THP, you can just ask Hussar.

Yes, there's times the slot is more valuable. There's also times having up 5 * spell slot level tHP when you weren't expecting trouble is more valuable. The mere fact that the first can be true does not dismiss the second part, which is what it feels like you are trying to do.

 

[Ancalagon]

Right. They don't stack.

So you cast AoA and get 25THP.
Then you cast polymorph and "lose", replacing it with 157.

So you never benefit from the AoA temporary hit points. 25 tHP is lost.

But the rules do not use the word "lose". It just says "The spell ends early if you have no Temporary Hit Points."

At no point, during the "switch", when receiving a temp HP boosting spell (such as polymorphe) do you have zero temp HP.

the 2014 rules were very specific that the spell was ended when the temp hp from AA were lost. The 2024 make so such precision.

 

[mellored]

But the rules do not use the word "lose". It just says "The spell ends early if you have no Temporary Hit Points."

You don't lose the cold damage.
You lose the 25THP.

I.e.
You have 100HP + 25 THP, take 50 damage, and polymorph for another 100 THP = 225 total HP

If you gave 100HP + 25 THP, then polymorph for 100 THP = 200 total HP.

You deal more damage, but can take less.