D&D (2024) Temp HP - a hidden nerf to druids and others

[ECMO3]

I had complaints from the player of a paladin (!), not a weak class, that they felt superfluous with a moon druid.

They are commonly called OP at lower levels on this board.

Any truthful discussion that the 2014 moon druid wasn't at least very powerful if not OP comes from ignorance.

NOTE: I am not trying to convince you the 2024 change was good or bad, just calling out that 2014 Moon Druid is considered at the top of the power curve of classes since you seem to be unaware. Or at least claim it can't "by any stretch of the imagination".

At really low level yes. Beyond level 5 they were outclassed by virtually all of the other full casters.

The Moon Druid wildshape forms were not powerful at level due to the abysmal AC.

 

[Clint_L]

A fighter who has full casting slots.

For three levels. Then you had an underpowered beast trying to tank or a mediocre caster. Their main usefulness was their versatility.

The new moon Druid sucks as a combatant at all levels and remains a mediocre caster. Druids are just a horrible miss in this iteration.

 

[mellored]

The new moon Druid sucks as a combatant at all levels and remains a mediocre caster. Druids are just a horrible miss in this iteration.

Have you tried it?

 

[ezo]

I had complaints from the player of a paladin (!), not a weak class, that they felt superfluous with a moon druid.

They are commonly called OP at lower levels on this board.

Any truthful discussion that the 2014 moon druid wasn't at least very powerful if not OP comes from ignorance.

NOTE: I am not trying to convince you the 2024 change was good or bad, just calling out that 2014 Moon Druid is considered at the top of the power curve of classes since you seem to be unaware. Or at least claim it can't "by any stretch of the imagination".

They are definitely good, no doubt about that, but I find it a bit laughable if a player of a Paladin feels "superfluous" in comparison (much better AC, great HP, insane NOVA abilities...). Anyway, for the record, I never claimed the 2014 Moon Druid wasn't powerful.

If you allowed multiclassing, the barbarian druid could be a bit crazy in the tanking department, but that was about it IME, but in general I would hardly put the moon druid near the top of the power curve of classes.

YMMV, of course.

 

[Clint_L]

Have you tried it?

Yes, we have one in our home campaign, level 11, where we’d been play testing all the rules as they were released. She’s gone back to the 2014 rules; the only person to do so, and I don’t blame her. I also have one in my new campaign at school, which is only using 2024 rules. He’s my most experienced player and is checking it out.

 

[M_Natas]

D&d 5e and 2024 5e some mechanics, that are getting worse the more they are implemented.
The most obvious are Temp. HP and Advantage. Temp. HP and Advantage are quite nice Designs, but the more feats use those mechanics, the more worthess each implementation becomes.

Because players will always uses the easiest/best implementation. And because you can only benefit from one source of Temp. HP / Advantage, the best source will be used. So only the feature that gives the highest Temp. HP will be used.
If you implement flanking rules, players will always use flanking to get Advantage and not try anything else.

And Temp. HP was already overdone in 5e and they now really overdid it in 2024e.

 

[Ancalagon]

Working as intended. It was even one of the things called out in the preview article and videos (about 1:45 into this one).
So I think calling it a hidden nerf is overstating things a bit.

The hidden nerf isn't that now they get a bit temp hp instead of buckets of "beast hp". Everyone can see that!

The hidden nerf is that this means they cannot benefit from temp hp from other sources (world tree barbarian, cleric with inspiring leader feat, etc)

 

[Ashrym]

The hidden nerf isn't that now they get a bit temp hp instead of buckets of "beast hp". Everyone can see that!

The hidden nerf is that this means they cannot benefit from temp hp from other sources (world tree barbarian, cleric with inspiring leader feat, etc)

I still wouldn't call that hidden. Benefiting from one source of thp has been a thing for a long time.

I'd also argue that not needing to give the druid thp with Inspiring Leader opens up room to give the druid's familiar thp instead. There's a limit of 6 targets. Life-Giving Force from the World Tree barbarian is limited to one target within 10' so they'll likely pick a different target. Mantle of Inspiration (Glamour bard) is limited to the bard's CHA bonus in targets and would also pick a different target instead.

The druid having their own source of thp allows for selecting different targets, which are typically limited in number. Or, looking at it from another angle, might open up taking another feat instead of taking Inspiring Leader because the Inspiring Leader thp have become mitigated.

This isn't a discussion that's as simple as "multiple sources of thp exist".

 

[Will Brandiman]

I wish WotC had persevered with the template idea, rather than this version of the Wildshape rules. I know the feedback on the templates in UA was bad but I'm fairly convinced it was the execution rather than the concept that was the issue for most people. The templates in UA were just weak and incredibly bland, with no special abilities to make them interesting. If they had improved the base templates and allowed druids to learn some special abilities as they level up to add a bit of flavour and utility, I think this could have been far more satisfying than what we ended up with in 2024.

 

[ECMO3]

I wish WotC had persevered with the template idea, rather than this version of the Wildshape rules. I know the feedback on the templates in UA was bad but I'm fairly convinced it was the execution rather than the concept that was the issue for most people. The templates in UA were just weak and incredibly bland, with no special abilities to make them interesting. If they had improved the base templates and allowed druids to learn some special abilities as they level up to add a bit of flavour and utility, I think this could have been far more satisfying than what we ended up with in 2024.

Well I provided feedback and for me it was the concept. I want the PC to turn into a bear, with the same abilities attacks etc as a bear, not a generic land mammal that I can use some Druid abilities and that happens to look like a bear.

Same with Find Familiar going to a Template.

I am happy with the new Wildshape. I was happy with the old Wildshape too. I was not happy with the Template concept.