How Quickly is C&C Catching on?

[Desdichado]

I keep hearing (not just from you) that C&C''s drawbacks are because it uses mechanics from or similar to OAD&D. To some of us, those "drawbacks" are the strength of the system. Just because something is old does not mean we like it because of nostalgia. We like it because it works. Thus the wheel analogy. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Unfortunately 3e took a lot of ideas that weren't broken and "fixed" them anyway. C&C goes a long way toward restoring that.

Ah, OK. Well that makes more sense.

In any case, I'm not sure that the rules are old school or not, but certainly the way it's presented online by its fans indicates an old school feel, if nothing else. I'd be glad to make up my own mind by looking at it... but my game store didn't have any copies in last time I was there.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I think all of use in this thread should try to form some kind of group hug situation.

P.S. Is the M&T book out yet? Huh? HUH?

 

[Breakdaddy]

Oh fir ding blast. I am going to go collect some thoughts and post a real post about something real. Like .... Battlestar Galactica ( i give it a 9 out of 10 hoot hoot. but i give desperate housewives a 10 out of 10)

I've got all 11 eps of Galactica and it is truly shaping up to be a great Sci Fi show. Best thing since Firefly (imo). Ive got the first seven eps of Desperate Housewives but havent watched a one of em at this point. Time, never enough time.

 

[Breakdaddy]

I think all of use in this thread should try to form some kind of group hug situation.

P.S. Is the M&T book out yet? Huh? HUH?

The M&T Book isnt out yet, but last I heard it was about ready to send off to the printer. Should be very soon. I'll bet Davis can hip us to his personal wisdom on when this thing is gonna drop.

 

[Desdichado]

First of all, the idea that the RC (or any OOP game, D&D or otherwise) is "outdated outclassed and obsolete..." is foolish in the extreme. Outclassed is an opinion so I can't (and will not) argue with that. If you feel it's outclassed no worries. However, outdated and obsolete are so ridiculous as to be laughable. Which is easily proved by the large amount of players each game still has (old AND new so don't give me that crusty old grognards still hanging on junk).

And trying to make that out as more than a handful of people (relatively speaking) is even more foolish in the extreme. Outdated and obsolete exactly describes the RC ruleset; it's out of print, it's unavailable, it's not supported, and it's been replaced by newer editions. Is there some other definition of outdated and obsolete that you're using that I'm unaware of?

said in the past, I don't care which game people enjoy and I don't care if they hate everything about C&C. I'm very much of the mind that everybody should play what they want and leave everybody else the heck alone. The only thing that gets my goat is the ignorant thought process which states if it's OOP then it's outdated or obsolete. Taking that statement further and saying that games which think old school ideals (more GM control, etc) are nothing but nostalgia products because they are using "outdated" or "obsolete" ideas is even more ridiculous. Especially in the case of C&C which is at least 50% modern style and new mechanical content.

The ignorant thought process is blasting someone for using correct terminology because you feel that it somehow seems insulting.

"The C&C phb is not, nor was it intended to be, a nostalgia game. Nostalgia is defined as: A bittersweet longing for things, persons, or situations of the past, and that's not what C&C is about.

Yeah, yeah, except that the statement on the Troll Lords website, which Krieg kindly posted here, contradicts you. So you'll forgive me if I don't simply say, "Oh, OK, well Jackal42 cleared that up, so I guess that's a done issue."

 

[RFisher]

I think the one nail C&C has in its coffin regarding multiclassing is its Prime system. I love the Prime system, makes things really easy, but I think this is the restricting force against good multiclassing rules.

From what I understand, each person gets one Prime from their class and another Prime of their choice. Humans get a third Prime. Am I right?

If so, and if the only way to get into a class is to have its primary ability score a Prime for your character, than as you gain levels you will be pretty restricted in what classes you can multiclass into. Not as bad for humans, but that does make sense since humans are the most versatile race in the game.

In the discussions amongst C&C Society members, I came to the conclusion that multiclassing was something that should be left out of the core rules because I didn't see a consensus forming on how it should be done.

Of course, C&C isn't a work by commitee, so consensus didn't really matter. As I understand it the MC rules didn't make it into the PHB for other reasons.

When you take the rules without MC & you add MC, you're effectively breaking the rules. So, the primes don't have to be a barrier to flexible MC.

People who like more restrictive MC rules typically come up with rules that require your primes to match all your classes.

People who like less restrictive MC rules, however, come up with ways around that. A simple way is to say that one of your classes is your "primary" class & that one of your primes must be its required prime. Your other classes' "required" prime is, however, not required. Such a system would allow you to create a Fighter/Rogue with Str & Con as primes. He may not be the most effective rogue, but he's still a more effective rogue than a straight fighter.

I expect we'll see lots of alternative MC rules for C&C. I wouldn't be surprised to have more than one option presented in the CKG. I wouldn't be surprise if none of them were considered the "standard" MC rules.

& in any case, I feel certain we'll see alternative MC rules in the Crusader.

 

[Jupp]

Does anyone have any more good stuff to add about C&C or is this thread now only about being the 500 lbs bully and smacking the other guy around with the biggest version of your rulebook of choice?

You mean like "My rulebook is bigger than yours"?

I think C&C is a perfect system to introduce new players to roleplaying games. I mean, it takes about 20+ minutes to explain everything the player has to know. Then he needs another 15 minutes to decide which class/race to choose and to let the dice roll. After that you can pretty much start the first game session. I think this is just grand and it would never be that easy with D&D where generating the character alone can take hours. And my opinion is that the faster people dig the rules the faster they will start to enjoy the game. There is nothing worse than drowning future players in the rules that is 3E because they will get turned off from rpgs in no time with that. And aside from playing games I think we should also try to bring fresh blood to the gaming table whenever that possibility shows up. C&C looks to be more suited to that task than D&D 3E IMO.

A very big plus for the DMs is that the prep time for the next game session is reduced tremendously with C&C. In 3E you have to create a fully fleshed out NPC/monster with Attributes, feats, skills, special abilities and the dreaded CR to make it work with the system. Compared to that creating or customizing monsters in C&C dead easy. To the DM this means that he can take the time he saved on the critters/NPCs and use it to further flesh out the story/plotline or to think about new cool encounters and happenings. I do not think all this has anything to do with nostalgia, being a grognard or whatever...its just about reallocating time from number crunching back to actual roleplaying.

While playing the DM has another advantage. He can insert or remove monsters or encounters on the fly without breaking combat and it doesnt take much time to do this. The other thing is that he can rais or lower stats of a creature in the middle of the fight, even add new abilities. This is mainly possible because C&C has much simpler, not inter-dependant, stats that can be altered pretty fast.

my 0.2c

 

[jstater]

Converting Feats and Prestige Classes

Converting the prestige class requirements is pretty easy. The main barrier is skills, of course. I found that the easiest way to handle that was to require class features when they match skills (move silently and hide, for example), and to require primes when they don't (Charisma for Intimidate, Intelligence for Knowledge). Since many of the skill requirements are designed to limit the prestige class to certain character levels (or class levels), I think it is reasonable to just add these as requirements, even though this is avoided in 3.5. Thus, an entry requirement of Knowledge (religion) 10 ranks could be converted into requirements of Intelligence as a prime, and class levels of Cleric 7 or Paladin 7. The CK could also just require the character to have a background in religion, and a character level (it's a 3.5 term, but without multiclassing rules I don't have a different terminology to use) of 7. The new Unearthed Arcana introduced the concept of ditching entry requirements for prestige classes and replacing them with tests of the characters abilities. This would be another way to go.

As for the feats - I'm working on an article to submit to the Crusader. If it doesn't pan out, I'll post my conversions.

 

[Jackal42]

I'm afraid you're not using correct terminology actually...or not using terminology correctly as the case may be. Outdated and obsolete both mean that a product has been replaced by something better and that the old product is no longer of any use (or not still in use). This describes the model T ford and it may describe RC D&D for YOU but it does not describe said product in general. RC D&D is still in use by a great many people (FAR more than you seem to think) and, more importantly, it still works just fine. Many think it works better than anything which has come after in fact. It's also very much available and if you'd like a copy I can easily direct you as to where to get it.

D&D 3e may have rendered RC D&D (or any other OOP game) obsolete and outdated in your case but saying this is so for gamers in general is a false statement not supported by the facts. The same goes for calling C&C a nostalgia product designed only to give a very small portion of gamers a "warm and fuzzy" feeling of a lost age. The creators of the game have come by and said as much so whether you think C&C succeeded in its goal or not, the idea was NOT to create a nostalgia product. Once more, stating that it feels like a nostalgia product to YOU does not make it fact.

Finally, I (and the Trolls) have made it quite clear where the misunderstanding regarding the advertising comes from. You can, again, disagree that the Trolls did not do a good job with their advertising but the point remains that they never intended those statements to mean the game would be 100% complete and that you would never need or want further material. That would be a rather foolish product in fact. The idea is for the C&C phb to give you enough information to get started and it does that...and then some.

So agree or not, what you are doing is stating your opinions of the game as fact. That's my only beef. So I'm not sure why you feel I'm "blasting" you as I only stated that your opinions aren't facts. They are simply how one person feels about the game. And as I said from the start, I have nothing against your opinions or the games you play. I only take issue with the way you state your opinions as facts...nothing more.

 

[Lizard]

I've seen a lot of internet discussion of Castles & Crusades - I bought it and am converting our group over.

Who else is playing it, what do you think, and do you have the sense that it's grabbing lots of people?

It seems like there's a real trend to the 1E "feel" and rules lite movement these days (someone already did a thread about the rules-lite phenomenon)...

Leaving aside the issue of C&C, I am still wondering in what altenrate universe AD&D 1E is 'rules lite'.

FUDGE is rules-lite. Over The Edge is rules-lite. AD&D 1E is about as rules-lite as Star Fleet Battles.