D&D (2024) How should a Summoner/Mob class be implemented in 1DnD?

[kigmatzomat]

I saw the other thread on making single-pet class which I realized is the antithesis of the summoner I like. Harry Dresden is a good example from pop culture, who had befriended the smallest fey early in his career by feeing them pizza and arming them with x-acto knives. One of the other casters he runs across can call up a mob of gray warriors. If I was replicating the character concept with items, think Horns of Valhalla or having a whole set of Figurines of Power.

If you want one big pet, go read that other thread.
(https://www.enworld.org/threads/how-should-a-summoner-pet-class-be-implemented-in-1dnd.697591/)

Before designing anything new, I want to point out what exists and focus on the 1dd arcane list to see what a sorcerer/wizard will likely have. Consider this the "do nothing" option, where there is no summoner class per se. I haven't limited it to true Summon spells and included spells that are thematically aligned with "Do my bidding!"

I will repeat the exercise with the Druid, who has a number of Conjure spells.

Class level - ability (spell level)

1 - familiar (1st)- scales based on spell slot used. With no duration all should be expected to have a max-level familiar 99%of the time. It is of average PC intelligence and can now attack, which requires using the caster's Reaction to a order it.

AC 10+ Spell level (SL) (+2 if land based)
HP 2+ 2x SL (+1 escape/LR )
Attack: as caster spell attack
Damage 1+SL radiant/psychic/ necrotic

5 Animate Dead (3rd) not a Summon per se but it fits that "go fight for me" shtick. Does have the "evil" problem. They are CR 1/4 melees, don't use concentration, are usable up to 24hrs, and only need a bonus action to command. With multiple castings (and planning) you could get up to 4 of them at 5th level, though you are always down a 3rd level slot.
At higher levels and multiple spell slots you could keep a small army of them. Or just set em loose on your foes as automatic murder machines.

7 Conjure minor elemental (4th) These are mostly evil and fire based, which may be a problem thematically. It ranges from 8x cr1/4 mephits to 1x cr2 gargoyle. With higher level slots it doubles (6th = 16x cr1/4 - 2x cr2, 8th= 32x cr1/4 - 4x cr2).
Mephits have some minor specials and spells with low save DCs but when you have 8x of them, the odds change. Sleep, blindness, restrained all let you play RNG lotto.
Compare the effectiveness of many 8th level spells applied to an army vs sending 32 mephits to cast 32x Sleep spells, followed by 32x blinding dust cones then slaughter all the unconscious ones and blinded soldiers.

9 Animate Object (5th). Can have 10x tiny constructs up to 1x Huge construct. They are not great outside combat, are slow (speed 20) but are either mobile cover/hp, act as disposable flankers for melees, can surround one target and puree it, or provide weird benefits like doors that open themselves/fight people who want to open them. (I once animated a portcullis. Made castle entry easy and kept the guards busy)

9 Conjure Elemental (5th) summons a single Cr5 elemental. These are generally large, have more HP than the summoner, have many resistances and can dish out a lot of damage.
They can also run amok, so there's that.


11 create undead (5th) -again, hits the "do my bidding" role. Create an (evil) CR 1 melee that has paralysis, no concentration, usable for 24 hours, only needs a bonus action to issue orders. Can have up to three CR1 either planning & time. Using higher level slots you can have more CR1or go up to two CR2 mummies.
I dont think this is worth it for direct control but as far as vicious permanent traps or just dropping them into an enemy's camp, they are great.

13 simulacrum (7th) not a Summon but again, close enough. It is permanent-ish (can only have one at a time), doesn't require concentration, and can recreate, well, any humanoid. Did you once sweep the floor after Conan got a haircut? Well, you can make a half-hp version of Conan but with all his attacks, class features, etc. Same goes for Mordenkainen. Spells don't recover but so freaking what! Make a dupe of yourself and essentially double your spell casting for a fight. Or have spare cleric. A disposable thief!
They aren't worth healing in most cases but that's ok. The 1,000gp cost is negligible for the tesults.

17 Gate & Wish - both are very hazy in rules terms but can result in suddenly bamfing in some high level outsider. Gating in a high CR celestial while fighting demons/undead is probably a safe bet, though you may get the "lose my number or face my wrath" speech.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

The summoner name definitely suits a mob class rather than a single pet class. The name is awful for a single pet class and gives people the wrong impression.

The issue with horde summoners is that they completely drag the gameplay to a crawl, taking ages to control all their minions to have a turn.

 

[Shardstone]

The summoner name definitely suits a mob class rather than a single pet class. The name is awful for a single pet class and gives people the wrong impression.

The issue with horde summoners is that they completely drag the gameplay to a crawl, taking ages to control all their minions to have a turn.

Disagree, I think Summoner can work for one summon and mob summons. After all, the Pokemon trainer aesthetic has penetrated pretty deeply, and in those games you typically only use one monster at a time.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Druid summoner

Class level - ability (spell level)

1 - familiar (1st)- scales based on spell slot used. With no duration all should be expected to have a max-level familiar 99%of the time. It is of average PC intelligence and can now attack, which requires using the caster's Reaction to a order it.

AC 10+ Spell level (SL) (+2 if land based)
HP 2+ 2x SL (+1 escape/LR )
Attack: as caster spell attack
Damage 1+SL radiant/psychic/ necrotic

Utility spells like Animal messenger are in-theme

5 conjure animals(3rd) These are fey in animal form and concentration is required. It summons from 8x cr1/4 mastiffs to 1x cr2 sabretooth tiger. Higher level slots add more. E.g.twice as many at 5th, triple at 7th, quadruple at ninth. So a mob of 32x mastiffs or flying snakes

7 Conjure minor elemental (4th) These are mostly evil and fire based, which may be a problem thematically. It ranges from 8x cr1/4 mephits to 1x cr2 gargoyle. With higher level slots it doubles (6th = 16x cr1/4 - 2x cr2, 8th= 32x cr1/4 - 4x cr2).
Mephits have some minor specials and spells with low save DCs but when you have 8x of them, the odds change. Sleep, blindness, restrained all let you play RNG lotto.
Compare the effectiveness of many 8th level spells applied to an army vs sending 32 mephits to cast 32x Sleep spells, followed by 32x blinding dust cones then slaughter all the unconscious ones and blinded soldiers.

7 conjure woodland being (4th) - mechanically similar to Conjure Minor Elemental, but a little less evil and not as much fire.

7 Giant Insect (4th) lets you make regular insects into giant form. Can be 10x cr 1/4 gains centipedes or a single cr3 scorpion. Requires concentration traction but is a free action to order them. Does not scale.

9 awaken (5th) get a semi-permanent ally, but at least for a month. Anything from a CR awakened tree to, if you can find one, a cr8 T-rex.

9 Conjure Elemental (5th) summons a single Cr5 elemental. These are generally large, have more HP than the summoner, have many resistances and can dish out a lot of damage.
They can also run amok, so there's that. But if you put one in an enemy army and can run away, it might work out better.

9 Conjure fey (5th) - summons a fey who takes up to a cr6 form, mostly beasts but some hags as well. They have the same running amok risk but as long as it can't fly or speak, it's safe to use as a bomb you drop on enemies. Can use higher slots to get up to a fey t-mrex.

There is nothing at higher levels, though some of the above do scale.

 

[kigmatzomat]

The summoner name definitely suits a mob class rather than a single pet class. The name is awful for a single pet class and gives people the wrong impression.

The issue with horde summoners is that they completely drag the gameplay to a crawl, taking ages to control all their minions to have a turn.

Hard disagree. Every leveled character rolls a lot of dice. I play a Bard in 5e with Animate Object and its no slower than the wizard who fireballs a dozen targets, the paladin who gets gets multiple attacks that have saves plus damage, the cleric with spirit guardians/spiritual weapon/primary action, warlock pewpewpew and monk flurries/ki saves.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Disagree, I think Summoner can work for one summon and mob summons. After all, the Pokemon trainer aesthetic has penetrated pretty deeply, and in those games you typically only use one monster at a time.

Except Pokémon isn't actually single-pet in thr literature. Yes, "duel" is one Pokémon at a time. In the stories though, that's violated by pickachu & meowth being more familiar/allies than summons. There were people with groups of pokemon, they just didn't duel.

 

[Shardstone]

Except Pokémon isn't actually single-pet in thr literature. Yes, "duel" is one Pokémon at a time. In the stories though, that's violated by pickachu & meowth being more familiar/allies than summons. There were people with groups of pokemon, they just didn't duel.

That's not the point. When it comes to action economy, what matters is if you summon one pet or multiple pets at the same time.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Lastly we will see the Divine caster summoner by RAW.

3 Find Steed (2nd) - scales based on spell slot used. With no duration all should be expected to have a max-level steed 99%of the time. It is smarter than a beast but acts a controlled mount, except when you are incapacitated, where it will act independently to protect you.

AC 10+ Spell level (SL)
HP 5+ 10x SL (+lifebond healing)
Attack: as caster spell attack
Damage 1d8 +SL radiant/psychic/ necrotic
+ 1/day special
Can add flight speed with a 4th level spell slot

Planar binding/magic circle - this is a weird mess of summoning with no clear chance of success. Too messy to consider.

11 Planar Ally (6th) - this is a very vague spell. It's definitely a summoning spell but each one is a negotiation with no clear outcome.

13th Conjure Celestial (7th) lets you Summon a cr4 celestial like a Coatl, which has a number of utility spells already on the Divine list. It requires concentration and can't go wild. As a 9th level spell it can call a cr5 celestial, like a Unicorn, who at past has some spells only from the Primal list like Pass without Trace.

17 Gate - hazy in rules terms but can result in suddenly bamfing in some high level outsider. Gating in a high CR celestial while fighting demons/undead is probably a safe bet, though you may get the "lose my number or face my wrath" speech.

 

[Vael]

Except Pokémon isn't actually single-pet in thr literature. Yes, "duel" is one Pokémon at a time. In the stories though, that's violated by pickachu & meowth being more familiar/allies than summons. There were people with groups of pokemon, they just didn't duel.

I'll confess I don't know Pokemon that well, played once. But the idea of "Pikachu ... I choose you" has gotten to me, so my assumption is that a Pokemon Trainer style Summoner would have multiple options for creatures to summon (Gotta catch them all), but would only have one "in play" at a time. Maybe spiking to 2 or 3 at high levels, but the base assumption is one at a time.

 

[kigmatzomat]

So lets summarize the 1DnD Arcane, Divine and Primal summoners:

*Arcane - has many options but most have drawbacks of being evil/undead or going uncontrolled as elementals.
*Divine - not much of a summoner in general
*Primal - more options for summoning than the others with a mix beasts, fey, and elementals

We should keep in mind that there will be some kind of balance, meaning we take features away from the base class and add summoner-specific traits. To compare bard to wizard, the bard gives up spell schools to get skills, armor, buff/debuffs, and limited access to the wider spell lists.

Lets take a Druid as the base class. We expect to use the Conjure spells and Awaken spell and probably Giant Insect. We have Find Familiar as a feature of Channel Nature, though it looks like CN are only 1st level slots so they aren't that sturdy.

I think we make 2 versions, a Summoner subclass for Druid and then a complete new class