D&D 5E How should be the future Oriental Adventures.

[Derren]

You're suggesting that a group of Chinese game designers, in China, with the goal of creating the leading Chinese RPG, are going to do it by disrespecting Chinese culture???

They would do the same thing as what WotC did to European culture, create a fantasy mash up of many different Chinese (and maybe also other regional) tropes and cultures from different times. And they would likely not see it as disrespectful (as long as the government approves).

But it would be the same kind of kitchen sink that gets labled as disrespectful here on the board.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

You're suggesting that a group of Chinese game designers, in China, with the goal of creating the leading Chinese RPG, are going to do it by disrespecting Chinese culture???

Yes, especially any of it that disagrees with the Communist party line. And that is just a statement of fact, not a vague political remark.

And anyone who sneaks in a Winnie the Pooh joke or reference will probably "disappear".

 

[Libramarian]

You're suggesting that a group of Chinese game designers, in China, with the goal of creating the leading Chinese RPG, are going to do it by disrespecting Chinese culture???

The Chinese live in a totalitarian state run by the same party that a few decades ago tried to violently purge many aspects of traditional Chinese culture from their society, and today carefully curates the information diet of its citizens. I wouldn't assume Chinese game designers would be good sources for Chinese history and myth.

I definitely wouldn't assume that what they came up with would be palatable to Woke Western sensitivity readers.

E.g. Kwan took umbrage with OA mentioning the use of chopsticks as improvised weapons and people in Kara-Tur eating a lot of rice. I wouldn't expect an actual Chinese person to understand why this is offensive.

 

[Azuresun]

You're suggesting that a group of Chinese game designers, in China, with the goal of creating the leading Chinese RPG, are going to do it by disrespecting Chinese culture???

People "disrespect" their own culture all the time! Or to be more accurate, they tinker with, re-interpret it, or just borrow the shallow aesthetics to tell their story. That's pretty much how we got D&D in the first place! A subtle risk of being too respectful is that non-European cultures get put in a bell jar, where they can never change, evolve or inspire anything.

There was a nice line from one of the developers of the Scion RPG that they tried to treat mythical figures and stories from cultures outside their own with as much respect....as the native tellers treated those mythical figures and stories. And sometimes that wasn't as much as you might assume

 

[Tun Kai Poh]

If a country can support a thriving Heavy Metal scene, they can support a D&D fandom. WotC would be fools to ignore either potential market.

points to this

I invite people to do a search for Heavy Metal bands and fans in Botswana. Or Indonesia (a huge market in Asia and the largest Muslim country in the world!). Yup.

Now the question of how foolish WotC is when it comes to approaching the international market, that's a completely different matter.

 

[77IM]

People "disrespect" their own culture all the time! Or to be more accurate, they tinker with, re-interpret it, or just borrow the shallow aesthetics to tell their story. That's pretty much how we got D&D in the first place! A subtle risk of being too respectful is that non-European cultures get put in a bell jar, where they can never change, evolve or inspire anything.

There was a nice line from one of the developers of the Scion RPG that they tried to treat mythical figures and stories from cultures outside their own with as much respect....as the native tellers treated those mythical figures and stories. And sometimes that wasn't as much as you might assume

Huh, I hadn't thought of it that way. But I would still assert that people "disrespect" their own culture/group/identity in a very different way than they disrespect someone else's, if only out of ignorance. I'm suggesting that the only way to be sure none of the disrespect in a culturally-themed product comes extracultural baggage is to commission the product to be made by and for members of that culture, rather than outsiders. As an added benefit, I personally would love to see such an RPG, because it would (hopefully) be very different than what I'm used to.

 

[Panda-s1]

In the hypothetical that WotC, at some point, releases a Kara-Tur product...that has received contributions and vetting from various cultural consultants from all cultures that inspired the works of Kara-Tur...it will, with a high degree of likelihood, still manage to offend. In which possible cultures and individuals that offence occurs is somewhat predictable in a general sense, but any work will inevitably "not sit well" with some in one form or another.

Therein lies a rather noteworthy conundrum. Would it simply be better to not even go there? Is it worth the risk? Is the goal to minimize the potential for offence, recognizing a product 100% certain not to offend is impossible?

The intent, no doubt, would be not to upset or offend a soul, especially so among those from cultures (or descended from cultures) that inspired the work....so if some are still upset and/or offended....is the intent suddenly meaningless? Is the message, at that point, to not even try anymore?

That really is one of the biggest concerns I possess as regards the debate. Will the risk of offending, no matter how strong the attempts are to avoid it, ultimately lead to stunting the imaginative and creative among us from even trying.

The debate continues, as it should...I just hope we don't lose something along the way.

y'know for starters it might help if you don't talk about people like me as if we're some sort of goddamn powder keg waiting to jump down someone's throat over cultural insensitivity. not everyone will agree on something. that doesn't mean you can't try. try is the operative word here, imo, WotC got a lot of flak over its depiction of Chult in Tomb of Annihilation because they barely put any effort into making it not a colonial stereotype.

also it's not like no one hasn't made an Asian-themed fantasy world that is generally accepted as well done, it's definitely possible to do.

The Chinese live in a totalitarian state run by the same party that a few decades ago tried to violently purge many aspects of traditional Chinese culture from their society, and today carefully curates the information diet of its citizens. I wouldn't assume Chinese game designers would be good sources for Chinese history and myth.

I definitely wouldn't assume that what they came up with would be palatable to Woke Western sensitivity readers.

why do you talk as if Chinese people are somehow devoid of their traditional culture and mythology? I'm sure the PRC does still try and censor parts of their past, but also there's plenty of shows and movies based on Chinese mythology and medieval tropes coming out of mainland China.

also not sure why you fail to grasp that there are a lot of Chinese people who don't live under the rule of the PRC government.

E.g. Kwan took umbrage with OA mentioning the use of chopsticks as improvised weapons and people in Kara-Tur eating a lot of rice. I wouldn't expect an actual Chinese person to understand why this is offensive.

maybe because an "actual" Chinese person might live in a country where anti-Asian racism is a normal occurence?

I guess I'll throw you a bone and assume you meant people who live in China: I'm pretty sure your average person living in China knows they don't eat rice all the time, and sometimes not at all. this is especially true the further north you go where wheat is the more commonly used grain. speaking from experience, just about every person of Chinese heritage I've talked to about rice find it at least annoying that eating rice is a stereotype especially when things like noodles and buns are commonly eaten in Chinese cuisine.

 

[ZeshinX]

y'know for starters it might help if you don't talk about people like me as if we're some sort of goddamn powder keg waiting to jump down someone's throat over cultural insensitivity. not everyone will agree on something. that doesn't mean you can't try. try is the operative word here, imo, WotC got a lot of flak over its depiction of Chult in Tomb of Annihilation because they barely put any effort into making it not a colonial stereotype.

also it's not like no one hasn't made an Asian-themed fantasy world that is generally accepted as well done, it's definitely possible to do

"...some sort of goddamn powder key waiting to jump down someone's throat over cultural insensitivity"

My point proven.

I get the frustration, but I'll speak as I feel appropriate and within the bounds of the rules of these forums. If the mods feel or recognize me as inciting anyone in a particular fashion, I'll accept their judgment. Until that time, I'll continue to share my thoughts as they come to me and as I write them. Your feelings are your own business.

 

[Panda-s1]

"...some sort of goddamn powder key waiting to jump down someone's throat over cultural insensitivity"

My point proven.

I get the frustration, but I'll speak as I feel appropriate and within the bounds of the rules of these forums. If the mods feel or recognize me as inciting anyone in a particular fashion, I'll accept their judgment. Until that time, I'll continue to share my thoughts as they come to me and as I write them. Your feelings are your own business.

what exactly was proven?

 

[ZeshinX]

what exactly was proven?

Apparently not a thing.