How Should Specialist Wizards be handled?
- Thread starter Kobold Avenger
- Start date
R
RHGreen
Guest
For a start I'd get rid of Abjuration, Divination and Conjuration and spread all those spells throughout the other schools.
Necromancy - Conjure Undead, Protection from Undead, Detect Undead
Fire - Conjure Fire Elemental, Protection from fire, Flame Scry
etc, etc
Necromancy - Conjure Undead, Protection from Undead, Detect Undead
Fire - Conjure Fire Elemental, Protection from fire, Flame Scry
etc, etc
The Shadow
Hero
I agree that the 1e Illusionist points the way to go.
It's not enough to bar schools. Specialists need to *both* be more focussed on their specialty, *and* get goodies that the core wizard does not. The Illusionist had illusions, enchantments, shadow-spells, a few divinations... and not really a whole lot else. But within their bailiwick they could do things no mere magic-user could pull off.
They were a heck of a lot of fun to play; the 2e and 3e specialist illusionists left me cold in comparison.
I also agree that the generalist wizard should maybe go. Why should every wizard be able to be good at everything?
EDIT: Also, the existing schools are too narrow. The Illusionist wasn't just illusions - he was also big into enchantment and mind-altering stuff in general. The spell-schools could use a major rethink, or else specialist mages shouldn't be directly based on them.
It's not enough to bar schools. Specialists need to *both* be more focussed on their specialty, *and* get goodies that the core wizard does not. The Illusionist had illusions, enchantments, shadow-spells, a few divinations... and not really a whole lot else. But within their bailiwick they could do things no mere magic-user could pull off.
They were a heck of a lot of fun to play; the 2e and 3e specialist illusionists left me cold in comparison.
I also agree that the generalist wizard should maybe go. Why should every wizard be able to be good at everything?
EDIT: Also, the existing schools are too narrow. The Illusionist wasn't just illusions - he was also big into enchantment and mind-altering stuff in general. The spell-schools could use a major rethink, or else specialist mages shouldn't be directly based on them.
Mercule
Adventurer
Good call. I'd forgotten about the shadow spells, when I posted. Those were the sole providence of illusionists. Only a true master could make the imaginary real. It's always peeved me that those became anyone's game. Phantasmal killer is in there, too. Only an illusionist could mind**** you to death.
Serendipity
Explorer
Moreover, to me, the illusionist always had FLAVOR - just a casual glance at the list of spells 1e illusionists got and I get inspired. Illusionists were weavers of dreams and shadow, giving substance to the formless, making the real doubtful, and making things out of mist and darkness, literally.
I'd like all 'specialty' wizards to have that kind of inspirational power.
I'd like all 'specialty' wizards to have that kind of inspirational power.
The Shadow
Hero
Yes, exactly. The Illusionist had tons and tons of flavor.
The real problem with the Evoker is not that he's a damage monster. It's that it's a completely BORING concept! "I shoot people with fire, lightning, acid, that kind of thing." Transmutation is to my mind even worse: "I, uh, change things. Into, you know, other things."
Trying to turn the schools into specialties was a mistake. The Illusionist is about so much more than illusions. I mean, they can do a little conjuration - of mist and fog and quasi-real shadows. They are enchantment monsters - as mentioned, they were the only 1e class that had Phantasmal Killer; one of the most seriously cool spell concepts ever. They also had Alter Reality instead of Wish - a touch of sheer genius of the sort that Gygax was very occasionally prone to.
What we need are thematic specialists. The Necromancer is one. He also should be about more than just creating and controlling the undead. He should be able to chill your bones to the marrow, literally. To hold your eyes with his own and lay bare your heart, as a vampire would. While he may be able to do a fair bit of healing, it should be considerably more gruesome than that of a cleric, and carry unpleasant side effects. He should be able to conjure masses of blood and bone.
Elementalists are another viable possibility. Summoners - maybe. "Demonologists" and "Theurges" would be more to the point, though that's getting close to stepping on the warlock's toes. Any others? Wild magic, maybe - but there again we're approaching sorcerer territory.
You know, arguably the druid would work better as a specialist mage than a divine caster. Legendarily, that's pretty much what they were!
GMforPowergamers
Legend
I would love to see each speclist build a little diffrent. I would have no problem with an Invoker looking like a 3e warmage, and an Illusionist to be built along the same lines
Can I just say I really want lesser shadow magic, shadow magic, Greater shadow magic, Limited wish, and wish back... spells that let you use other spells on the fly...
I would love it if we had Wizard (Mage), Wizard (Illusionist), Wizard (Invoker), Wizard (summoner), and Wizard (Necromancer) all as viable characters.
Then we can see things like the mage has access to these 200 spells, some are illusions, some are evocations, some are Conjurations, some are Necromancy, some are enchantment, some are divination, and some are transmutation... Illusionst has access to all of those illusions (Pluse 10-12 more just for them), and some enchantmants, and divinations and evocations... and so on.
Can I just say I really want lesser shadow magic, shadow magic, Greater shadow magic, Limited wish, and wish back... spells that let you use other spells on the fly...
I would love it if we had Wizard (Mage), Wizard (Illusionist), Wizard (Invoker), Wizard (summoner), and Wizard (Necromancer) all as viable characters.
Then we can see things like the mage has access to these 200 spells, some are illusions, some are evocations, some are Conjurations, some are Necromancy, some are enchantment, some are divination, and some are transmutation... Illusionst has access to all of those illusions (Pluse 10-12 more just for them), and some enchantmants, and divinations and evocations... and so on.
I think the Wizard should be the core class option. It would be a generalist with access to a core list of arcane spells. Then add all of the specialists as their own classes (as mentioned, similar in vein to the Beguiler, etc. but based on the specialty school). Each specialty should feel unique and different than a generalist, not just a small numeric bonus to spells of their school. For instance, a conjurer might be more obvious because of their summoned "pet" (think similar to the Pathfinder Summoner).
On a side note and as a good example of how I think they should go with arcane specialists... This is basically the same route Fantasy Craft went. There is a core generalist mage, and then a series of specialist classes that have their own unique class abilities. However, FC magic schools are NOT like D&D. There are 8 Schools with 3 disciplines in each school. To make it even more different no spell is ever in more than 1 discipline. This makes it a lot easier to control the types of spells each specialist gains.
Each specialist gains benefits to their own school as well as losing access to spells from certain other schools, thus giving the generalist mage some worth. It may not gain access to spell levels as quickly but it has a wider range of spells and more "generic" class features. Specialists however, gain class features that are quite specific to their specialty for instance a Reaper (affliction, necromancy and shadow disciplines) might gain a transmogrification to undead status at high levels.
On a side note and as a good example of how I think they should go with arcane specialists... This is basically the same route Fantasy Craft went. There is a core generalist mage, and then a series of specialist classes that have their own unique class abilities. However, FC magic schools are NOT like D&D. There are 8 Schools with 3 disciplines in each school. To make it even more different no spell is ever in more than 1 discipline. This makes it a lot easier to control the types of spells each specialist gains.
Each specialist gains benefits to their own school as well as losing access to spells from certain other schools, thus giving the generalist mage some worth. It may not gain access to spell levels as quickly but it has a wider range of spells and more "generic" class features. Specialists however, gain class features that are quite specific to their specialty for instance a Reaper (affliction, necromancy and shadow disciplines) might gain a transmogrification to undead status at high levels.
The Shadow
Hero
So here's a question: If the core wizard is no longer a generalist, what sort of specialist should he be?
I'm thinking 'thaumaturge' or wonder-worker. He can shoot fire, he can turn people into frogs, he can make notable changes to the environment. Plenty of evocations and transmutations, very little if any in the way of mind-altering magic. Basically, he does the stuff that immediately tends to come to mind when you think, "D&D wizard".
I could go either way on summoning spells - Summoner could perhaps be a specialist of his own, though the wizard might have a few Summon Monster spells.
I'm thinking 'thaumaturge' or wonder-worker. He can shoot fire, he can turn people into frogs, he can make notable changes to the environment. Plenty of evocations and transmutations, very little if any in the way of mind-altering magic. Basically, he does the stuff that immediately tends to come to mind when you think, "D&D wizard".
I could go either way on summoning spells - Summoner could perhaps be a specialist of his own, though the wizard might have a few Summon Monster spells.
Keep the 8 schools of magic! Sure, they are arbitrary and ambiguous, but any attemp to slice magic into equal parts will be arbitrary and ambiguous. So just stick with the classic partition.
As for the rules, go the Pathfinder / Essentials route. All specialists have access to the same list of spells, but at certain levels you get a freebie that makes you better at spells of your school. Necromancers summon more undead, enchanters have harder to resist charm spells, evokers cast bigger fireballs... It's pretty straightforward, actually, and I wonder why it took so long until the game evolved to this point.
In addition, I'd tie the at-will magic feats to schools.
* Evocation is easy, Thunderwave, Burning Hands and many others fit the bill.
* Necromancy gets the Diablo II Bone Spear. I could also imagine an at-will Summon Skeleton Archer that takes a standard action to direct to attack
* Divination gets Sightless Shot, an Int-based ranged weapon attack with +4 to attack that ignores darkness, cover, and concealment
* Transmutation gets Painful Warp, damage and slow against fort save, and Dragontooth, which transforms your head into a dragon for a round to breathe fire
* Conjuration gets Furious Elemental, which calls a small elemental that smashes into the enemy and explodes
* Illusion gets Shadow Bolt, a missile attack that blinds on a crit
* Enchantment get that Essentials at-will that forces an enemy to hit someone
* Abjuration gets sparking shield, which gives +2 AC and can be dissolved as an immediate reaction to hit an enemy that attacks you
As for the rules, go the Pathfinder / Essentials route. All specialists have access to the same list of spells, but at certain levels you get a freebie that makes you better at spells of your school. Necromancers summon more undead, enchanters have harder to resist charm spells, evokers cast bigger fireballs... It's pretty straightforward, actually, and I wonder why it took so long until the game evolved to this point.
In addition, I'd tie the at-will magic feats to schools.
* Evocation is easy, Thunderwave, Burning Hands and many others fit the bill.
* Necromancy gets the Diablo II Bone Spear. I could also imagine an at-will Summon Skeleton Archer that takes a standard action to direct to attack
* Divination gets Sightless Shot, an Int-based ranged weapon attack with +4 to attack that ignores darkness, cover, and concealment
* Transmutation gets Painful Warp, damage and slow against fort save, and Dragontooth, which transforms your head into a dragon for a round to breathe fire
* Conjuration gets Furious Elemental, which calls a small elemental that smashes into the enemy and explodes
* Illusion gets Shadow Bolt, a missile attack that blinds on a crit
* Enchantment get that Essentials at-will that forces an enemy to hit someone
* Abjuration gets sparking shield, which gives +2 AC and can be dissolved as an immediate reaction to hit an enemy that attacks you
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