How strong is the Binder?

[frankthedm]

It is hard to do damage as a binder. For example, if you bind with Amon, then you can do 1d6 per level fire damage, but its a line of fire so is likely only to affect one target, and there is a reflex save to take half damage (beware evasion, and fire resistance is possibly the most common of all the energy immunities) - and you can only do it once every 5 rounds.

Lines are easy to get at least two or 3 folks with. You only need to nick thier combat square to affect the victim.

 

[Voadam]

They are great for roleplaying, but a little weak, especially in direct quick combats.

Weak attacks that can only be used every five rounds or so generally means once as many combats last less than six rounds.

Not that many abilities provided at one time.

Not really enough vestige power to make a stand out melee combatant though that is many of the vestiges' focus.

Their strengths are being able to present a lot of different types of power arrays for a day (daily power flexibility the way prepared casters have) and being able to do some things unlimited times in a day after a few rounds recharge between uses.

So if you have long/multiple fights against weak foes they are decent and if they know what they are going against for a day they can be all right.

 

[Voadam]

Lines are easy to get at least two or 3 folks with. You only need to nick thier combat square to affect the victim.

Once every five rounds. IIRC the lines are not that long either.

 

[Nifft]

IMHO they're 2nd tier in terms of power -- similar to Rangers, Rogues and the like. They are interesting, and their Pact Augmentations make them more potent than they otherwise would be, but they're not going to dominate or destroy a game.

Like a Wizard, a good Binder needs to know what he's going to face when preparing for a day of adventuring. Unlike a Wizard, a Binder can't fall back on wands and scrolls when he's surprised. This is his biggest flaw IMHO: very limited strategic ability to change his tactical abilities, and worse yet, a band-aid fix in the form of a magic item (the Vestige Phylactery) which is open to abuse.

IMHO the Vestige Phylactery should go away, Binders should be allowed to swap bound vestiges a few times each day (increasing with level), and then the class would be better balanced.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Stalker0]

Ok, so the general opinion seems to be a bit on the weak side. Definitely playable, but could do with a little beefing.

Anyone have any general recommendations on how to beef it up a tad? My initial thought was to give them 4+ int skill points. For a "variety/jack of all trades" class that the binder seems to be, their skill points are pretty low.

I will have expel vestige so I can at least swap a vestige once a day for your suggestion Nifft.

I was thinking of asking for this feat to help increase the variety:

Improved Expel Vestige
Prereq: Expel Vestige

Benefit: You only suffer a -5 to binding checks when expelling a vestige. You can expel a vestige 1/day, which stacks with the Expel Vestige feat.


Any other general suggestions on how to round out their power a bit. I can use the one vestige that gives me magic item use as a wizard, so I will that once in a while.

 

[Satori]

I've found in my brief Binder experience that the key to being effective is to NOT try to be a jack of all trades.

Keep your eye on a few vestiges you REALLY like, build a character concept around those vestiges to maximize their potential, then use your extra vestiges to add versatility.

Kind of like a pure Fighter grabbing a few levels of Rogue.

In particular, take the Full BAB class if you want more melee potential, or the Mystic Theurge style classes for casting.

However, if you choose to walk the "middle" path and not focus on anything, you WILL be a bit frustrated when you can do a lot of these at a fairly mediocre level...while your buddies are performing their niches at a high level.

Just a thought.

 

[Cadfan]

Binders try to do an awful lot at once, and that makes it hard to build a strong one.

You need combat statistics if you want to get much out of the combat vestiges. But you also need charisma, especially if you want to use vestiges that focus on saving throws. Often, you'll want entirely different sets of gear depending on what vestige your binding.

I'd allow them in my campaign. They're not going to break the game or anything. In fact, they're a little tough to play. Rewarding though.

 

[kigmatzomat]

There are a couple of vestiges that provide gaze attacks (cold & acid, IIRC) that can be very useful for crowd control.

 

[Thurbane]

I'm really hoping to play a binder myself sometime.

Some of the binder specific feats, like Ignore Special Requirements, Improved Binding and Skilled Pact Making, are almost a must...

 

[ShadowX]

A friend is playing a binder in one game and it seems like a rather conflicted class. it seems like the intended design of the class emphasized flexibility because you can change vestiges and the vestiges themselves can make you anything from a diplomancer to a psuedo-rogue. Yet, you can't change vestiges very easily so many of the vestiges never see use as a binder faces a dilemma similar to the wizard; do I hope the day's adventuring allows me to use these situational vestiges or do I prepare a more generally applicable ability suite? The better decision is almost always the latter.

I don't think giving binders the ability to change vestiges after a short ritual would overpower the class. Instead of encountering a locked door and thinking "wish we had a rogue" your binder buddy can just say "give me a minute," bind a new vestige and open the door. That is my fix anyway.